liche asked so i made this

**Liche** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Thu May 28, 2009 12:48 am

enviro wrote:

are you blocking my freedom of speech?
i have to rite to makemyself look like a douche and you have no right to block it(unless insutling or racist ofcourse)
but im just saying i dont care. sorry but i dont
what do you want me to do, cry?

Im actually pretty convinced your trying to make yourself look like a douchebag, because from what Ive gathered you think that makes you look cool.

**enviro** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Thu May 28, 2009 3:08 am

i am not cool from being a douce
or else i would have been a douche a shitload more times
i just frankly dont care. thats that

P.S unles you think douches are cool

p.s.s im just me, 99 percent douceh

and why would i need to impress you guys? im never gonna be you. so theres really no reason, i mean half of you already hate me

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Thu May 28, 2009 12:14 pm

enviro wrote:

are you blocking my freedom of speech?

Your intellectual proficience makes it for you.

enviro wrote:

what do you want me to do, cry?

No. Respect.

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Thu May 28, 2009 2:57 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

enviro wrote:

what do you want me to do, cry?

No. Respect.

You want him to respeCt.. what?

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"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Thu May 28, 2009 9:18 pm

CoolKidX wrote:

You want him to respeCt.. what?

Zach and his relationship with that girl.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Thu May 28, 2009 10:29 pm

i do respect him
but i dont care about them

what is intellectuall proficence? saying im not smart?
if so what makes you samrt? and how do you define it?
if not then please explain

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**Liche** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Fri May 29, 2009 1:07 am

enviro wrote:

im kool kzu Im a dik

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Fri May 29, 2009 1:36 am

enviro wrote:

i do respect him

If you did you wouldn't talk about that topic.

enviro wrote:

what is intellectuall proficence? saying im not smart?
if so what makes you samrt? and how do you define it?

if not then please explain

Nope, saying that your limited array of knowledge and your capability to employ it does limit your capability to freely speak.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Fri May 29, 2009 3:10 am

limited knowlege and array to use it sounds like an insult, and belive me i take it as one.
how is my array small and how is yours so big?
do you belive you are better than me?

yeah i shouldnt of started it though
i give you that

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Fri May 29, 2009 6:04 pm

Liche wrote:

enviro wrote:

im kool kzu Im a dik

wat:S

_________________
"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sat May 30, 2009 12:50 am

enviro wrote:

limited knowlege and array to use it sounds like an insult, and belive me i take it as one.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

enviro wrote:

how is my array small and how is yours so big?

Relatively mine is bigger and smaller in some regards and viceversa and such is with all persons.

I merely mentioned an axiom - if your knowledge is limited your capability speak freely is limited as well. Considering that in several of the topics treated here your cognoscitive proficience is relatively limited, then, in regard to those topics your "freedom of speech" is limited as well - you speak within the limited framework of your limited knowledges making you prone to part from false premises which, being the basis of your "free speech" make defacto your free speech false and so the freedom within it.

enviro wrote:

do you belive you are better than me?

Subjective and relative term. At may be better at A while you may be better at B. If from the alphabet I'm better at 20 letters and you at 7 then the betterity of ouer betternesses would have to be in regard to the intrinsic value of all these variables which is subjective and therefore objectively unassessable.

In other words, no.

enviro wrote:

yeah i shouldnt of started it though
i give you that

This sums it up.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sat May 30, 2009 4:43 pm

kk
then i have a question
lets say you did think you were better than me, isnt that the begining of the end for communism

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sat May 30, 2009 6:44 pm

enviro wrote:

kk
then i have a question
lets say you did think you were better than me, isnt that the begining of the end for communism

No. Being better doesn't mean I get to exploit you.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sat May 30, 2009 8:03 pm

no
i mean that as soon as you think your better, you begin to think you deserve more or you do more. and as soon as you think you(pretend you are a doctor) are better and deserve more than hm(lets say pediatircian) you break communism

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**Liche** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sat May 30, 2009 9:01 pm

enviro wrote:

no
i mean that as soon as you think your better, you begin to think you deserve more or you do more. and as soon as you think you(pretend you are a doctor) are better and deserve more than hm(lets say pediatircian) you break communism

Hmm, where exactly do you get your logic? I get what your trying to say but its not right. Just because your better than someone dosent mean you deserve more. What your saying is, the better you are the more you get in return.

**enviro** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sun May 31, 2009 3:18 am

what im saying is in some people, as soon as you think your better, you question why am i getting the same as him. like sorta envy
and it does mutate

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sun May 31, 2009 4:18 am

enviro wrote:

no
i mean that as soon as you think your better, you begin to think you deserve more or you do more. and as soon as you think you(pretend you are a doctor) are better and deserve more than hm(lets say pediatircian) you break communism

No. Communism is about workers owning the means of production and managing them according to their rules, not about everyone receiving exactly the same.

There are several different organizational models that fit within a communist framework and all of them allow the possibility of workers having materially more than others, the only condition for this is that the community agrees. This happens when the community agrees that a certain labour or labour performed in a certain way has more value and thus the workers performing it ought to receive more.

One good example is DeLeonism. In DeLeonism you get workers managing everything through Industrial Unions. Workers set a societal minimum production goal, that is, a basic ammount of work to be performed by the members of the community to achieve a minimum production, a basic production to suffice basic needs. That is for example, determining what the minimum admisible ammount and kind of food, water, housing and electricity will be for those completing the minimum ammount of work as set by community.

If the minimum admisible ammount of work is completed, then, the worker recieves goods in accordance to what has been communitarily determined as basic needs, the minimum you can have.

If said work quota has been exceeded, then you receive labor credits. You can use these credits to get extra goods or goods that have been deemed by the community as a luxury.

This also works when the community decides that a certain job is worth more, for example, a surgeons' labor against a stylist's labor or a mason's labour. If the community deems that a surgeon's labor is more worthy because he saves lives and that the more lives he saves or helps saving the more he deserves, then so will it be and he will be able to have luxuries in contrast to say a guy that just sweeps the street.

The communist thing about this is that everyone owns the means of production and everyone is determining what the surgeon deserves, the surgeon is working for everyone and everyone is working for the surgeon instead of the surgeon's patients working for some guy who sells their produce to the surgeon and the surgeon working for some guy who sells the surgeon's service to his patients and this relationship being coordinated and all its conditions set by all the parts involved instead by just a small fraction of these parts.

Another example that applies to anycommunist organizational scheme:

The matter of professional sportsmen for example. they literally bring no material benefit to teh community. However, they may provide with certain pleasure a broad ammount of workers.

So, suppose there is a community of 60 million football soccer fans that work in all productive spheres of economy. These fans are so into football and admire professional footballer's performance so much that they deem those professional footballers deserving of the luxuries they want. So, these football fans will create an entire economy around football soccer practice: they'll feed the professional footballers, they'll make their clothing, they'll build their cars and houses, they'll provide them with water, gas, electricity and telecommunications and they'll provide them with a broad as possible array of services as possible.

If the footballers want mansions with pools, integrated spas, ferrari-like cars, game consoles, allowance to get drunk and race on their super sports' cars, it will be in the hands of their fans to provide them with all that if so they deem necesary. In exchange they'll reivindicate the reason for which they have fans - their sportive performance. Footballers will work and play for the people and the people will work for the footballers.

Supposing of course such a fanbase may exist within the context of a post-revolutionary world in which people are aware of how material conditions influde in the development of the individual, thus, of professional level sportsmen.

Eventually, if professional sportsmen still develop, they'll be comming from a socialist laboral context in which, by fulfilling laboral roles they still managed to practice their sport to a degree of excellence high enough to create a fanbase that will allow them develop as professionals in a certain sport. Which is not unlikely to happen.

A similar thing may occur with artists, with some specific differences. Our dear comrade Lilith, who is an artist in development herself, may explain how would art work within a socialist framework in general.

Is it clear now why differences may exist within communism? Is it clear what communism stands for? Do you get that communism is not about "arbitrarily giving the same to everyone as determined by a group isolated from the working comunity"? Do you get that communism is not about getting the same?

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: liche asked so i made this Sun May 31, 2009 4:39 am

ok its more clear know ya
thanks

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