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 What do women want - in a partner ?

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:18 am

beatnikzach wrote:
she is my everything.
well what city is you in comrade?
joking haha
wow man, that is terrible im sorry comrade, are you still together?


I understand what you talk about... my girl used to me my everything too. I was devoted to her as if she was a godess.

I'm in Mexico City. Jokes aside, if I could be of any help I'd be most glad to Smile

Yeah we're still together, but I'm seriously considering to break up with her... even if I love her more than everything.
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:48 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
beatnikzach wrote:
she is my everything.
well what city is you in comrade?
joking haha
wow man, that is terrible im sorry comrade, are you still together?


I understand what you talk about... my girl used to me my everything too. I was devoted to her as if she was a godess.

I'm in Mexico City. Jokes aside, if I could be of any help I'd be most glad to Smile

Yeah we're still together, but I'm seriously considering to break up with her... even if I love her more than everything.


wow i mean if you can get to the coast line behind baja, or find me away there i would be so greatful Very Happy
its a tough situation, actualy my old lady came out of a situation like that about six months ago, at the time me and her were best friends, and i saw how devistated she was, man its rough when the one you love doesnt seem to love you back, happens to all of us :[
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:20 am

beatnikzach wrote:


wow i mean if you can get to the coast line behind baja, or find me away there i would be so greatful Very Happy


Oh she's in Baja California... somewhat far away from my city... If I was a bit richer I'd gladly pay you both a trip together. Or you a trip to her Smile

beatnikzach wrote:

its a tough situation, actualy my old lady came out of a situation like that about six months ago, at the time me and her were best friends, and i saw how devistated she was, man its rough when the one you love doesnt seem to love you back, happens to all of us :[


Well she found you and you found her.
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:07 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
beatnikzach wrote:


wow i mean if you can get to the coast line behind baja, or find me away there i would be so greatful Very Happy


Oh she's in Baja California... somewhat far away from my city... If I was a bit richer I'd gladly pay you both a trip together. Or you a trip to her Smile

beatnikzach wrote:

its a tough situation, actualy my old lady came out of a situation like that about six months ago, at the time me and her were best friends, and i saw how devistated she was, man its rough when the one you love doesnt seem to love you back, happens to all of us :[


Well she found you and you found her.

its rocky point i believe, oh man that would be epic Very Happy
haha ya man its the so great, i came out of a situation like a year ago so it is amazing.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:24 pm

beatnikzach wrote:

its rocky point i believe, oh man that would be epic Very Happy


Yeah it is a rocky point Smile If I could I'd be most glad to help all my comrades, specially if it's on a love matter Very Happy

beatnikzach wrote:

haha ya man its the so great, i came out of a situation like a year ago so it is amazing.


Yeah... I can just imagine how it might be Smile


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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:27 pm

well thank you very much comrade, if you ever need help in southern california i could try to hook it up.
ya its pretty great man, 2 month anniversy is today >.<
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:01 am

beatnikzach wrote:
well thank you very much comrade, if you ever need help in southern california i could try to hook it up.
ya its pretty great man, 2 month anniversy is today >.<


Thanks Wink

Two months... ah.. so many things await you both Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:13 am

i got ya comrade Smile
ya man Very Happy
we have both liked each other for about a year and half though, even whille we were dating other people, little did we know it was killing us haha.
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Rename
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:23 pm

Saying that all women like to be mistreated is just ignorant, same as saying all mothers just want money.

Let's look at the opposite sex for a second, guys, each one is different, some may like the mean bad girl, some may like the nice girl, some may like brunettes some may like redhead/blond etc.

Now the same will be applied to girls, some may like to be mistreated, some would want a loving guy, some may want a helpful, some may even want a rich man, but does that mean they all want to be used? No.

Logic? - The un-popular guys in high school still do date other girls, do you think "nerdy" kids mistreat girls to get a date? My sister is dating a very nice guy, and does he mistreat her? Maybe by buying her a ring and saying he loves her, yes, otherwise physical or mental no.

Your view is some serious close-minded ideals

EDIT: My family is poor, and my father was always poor, that didn't stop my mom from marrying him.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:15 pm

This is not about nillerz.

I agree with Rename, every woman is different. Unfortunately nonetheless, my experience has showed me much more whorelike women.
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Marijah
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:21 pm

What do women want - in a partner?

I will try to tell you from my point of view.
But at the very virst, I want to tell you something:
This question is a bit stupid. I couldn't love a behavior, a title or rank, I can only love persons. Never try to bend yourself for a woman, it WILL ruin you. Love doesn't mean distortion. Just be yourself, open your heart and eyes.

If someone believes in me like a religion, I call him stalker, if someone do everything I want, I call him mindless, he throw away his live. I would not want anyone to give their own life up. I think I earned a real person, not a puppet as a partner. Please, don't think I am cruel and coldhearted, but this is real.
I am a romantic and emotional person, I would die for my love. This is a fruit of love, not a root.
The basic of love isn't a big event, a big happening. Small things make it happen, make him or her Mr or Mrs Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZMtPYOkrDc

If you cannot find a woman who loves you how you are, she doesn't earn to be with you!


What do women want, again?
Again, a song, but its german. I translate the most important parts.
Sometimes, woman like to be hit. ( this repeats sometimes )
Always, yes truely always, guys like you earnd a real bash!

Oh come shut the f**k of! Mens are Alpha, Women Beta? IN YOUR DREAMS PALE! You must have a lot exposure to the worst. Everyone who agrees with this shit line up and get your punishment. !-.-!

My very own opinion: Please stop thinking "men" like this "women" like that, this is no good. There is no basic difference, the eduction makes the biggest differences. Some women are creepy like hell, I wish not to meet them in dark. Oh and some men could get bashed by 6 year old girls.

Men should be strong, women beautiful. Oh come on guys ugly as hell aren't womanizer as well Very Happy and I envy sporty women. Otherwise I won't love muscles, as I already said, I love a person. Guys do not get blind by beauty, it will fade.
But love will make loved ones most beautifull forever. I experienced that.

I agree with Rename and Zealot, every woman, every man, everybody is different.

Zealot, I am sad your experience has showed you much more whorelike women, but don't judge them to hard. The media forces them into that corner, and others need this kind of behavior to protect them.

A last phrase:
Womens play with the bad boys, but take the good ones home with them.

I hope / think you stare and flirt with the whorelikes, but take the extremely intelligent, loving, beautiful, healthy, extremely sexual (and must share my sexual ideosincracy), loyal, open-minded, objective, active, conscious, thoughtful, sensible, someone who loves her work because of the sake of it, humble, non-materialist, non-income oiented, honest, don't you, Zealot? ^^

Take an example at Zealot!
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:59 pm

Sara wrote:
WoW....if someone can do everything I want and don't ask for anything.I will love him and devoted to him forever!!!


I will do everything you ask, but dont ask for things I dont want to do.

Or ro rephrase it. We should always concern about the other one.
Ask for anything we like from the other, but also do everything the other wishes.

I do everything for you, because I know you do everything for me!



@Marijah
Your post is very good! I enjoyed reading and I agree with it!
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:11 am

well if you love someone, and they love you back, then they should love you for you, not for being a pseudo bad boy, or a modern gentleman.
just for you.
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:42 pm

Marijah wrote:
What do women want - in a partner?

I will try to tell you from my point of view.
But at the very virst, I want to tell you something:
This question is a bit stupid. I couldn't love a behavior, a title or rank, I can only love persons. Never try to bend yourself for a woman, it WILL ruin you. Love doesn't mean distortion. Just be yourself, open your heart and eyes.


Yet sometimes you can love those who change ensuing suffering in the future.

Marijah wrote:

If someone believes in me like a religion, I call him stalker, if someone do everything I want, I call him mindless, he throw away his live. I would not want anyone to give their own life up. I think I earned a real person, not a puppet as a partner. Please, don't think I am cruel and coldhearted, but this is real.


And what if a person's reality is to try and make you happy in all aspects possible? What if that person's pleasure is found within trying to do so?

Marijah wrote:

I am a romantic and emotional person, I would die for my love. This is a fruit of love, not a root.
The basic of love isn't a big event, a big happening. Small things make it happen, make him or her Mr or Mrs Right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZMtPYOkrDc


I didn't quite understand this part.


Marijah wrote:

If you cannot find a woman who loves you how you are, she doesn't earn to be with you!


*she doesn't deserve to be with you.

Which means if I can't find a woman who loves you as I am I should stay alone, right?

Marijah wrote:

What do women want, again?
Again, a song, but its german. I translate the most important parts.
Sometimes, woman like to be hit. ( this repeats sometimes )
Always, yes truely always, guys like you earnd a real bash!

Oh come shut the f**k of! Mens are Alpha, Women Beta? IN YOUR DREAMS PALE! You must have a lot exposure to the worst. Everyone who agrees with this shit line up and get your punishment. !-.-!


*men, in your dreams pal, deserve

So it is basically a song about a gender war... women trying to get rid off the stigma of being below men. At least in my whole life experience women have not been below men.

Marijah wrote:

My very own opinion: Please stop thinking "men" like this "women" like that, this is no good. There is no basic difference, the eduction makes the biggest differences. Some women are creepy like hell, I wish not to meet them in dark. Oh and some men could get bashed by 6 year old girls.


There is a concept on how men "should" be. Nowadays there are much less expectations on how women should be. The role of women have changed from the commited housewife to "the man" of the house.

Marijah wrote:

Men should be strong, women beautiful. Oh come on guys ugly as hell aren't womanizer as well Very Happy and I envy sporty women. Otherwise I won't love muscles, as I already said, I love a person.


And the body is part of the person.

Marijah wrote:

Guys do not get blind by beauty, it will fade.


Everyone has a different way to cope with this.


Marijah wrote:

But love will make loved ones most beautifull forever. I experienced that.


And beauty is a requisite to love for some.


Marijah wrote:

Zealot, I am sad your experience has showed you much more whorelike women, but don't judge them to hard. The media forces them into that corner, and others need this kind of behavior to protect them.


I don't judge anyone hard. I'm a gynephile, that means, I loev women and have regarded them with more respect than men always. However, most of my female friends and my girlfriend are plain whores and they know they are and sometimes call themselves that way.

Marijah wrote:

A last phrase:
Womens play with the bad boys, but take the good ones home with them.

*women

That's exactly what my girl does. In that case women play with both kinds of men just the good ones care about the consequences.

Marijah wrote:

I hope / think you stare and flirt with the whorelikes, but take the extremely intelligent, loving, beautiful, healthy, extremely sexual (and must share my sexual ideosincracy), loyal, open-minded, objective, active, conscious, thoughtful, sensible, someone who loves her work because of the sake of it, humble, non-materialist, non-income oiented, honest, don't you, Zealot? ^^


I flirt with nobody. I don't like whorelike women except as friends and they're not awesome friends either. And I have never met a girl of the second kind, maybe once or twice but being considerably older than me and alreday with someone.

Marijah wrote:

Take an example at Zealot!


Well everyone wants different kinds of lives regarding to this. Many like just to have sex or to party around with girls; others want sex slaves; others want breeding machines; others want friends with whom they have intimate relationships; others want companions.

We're all different in this aspect.... since I'm 14 years old I've just wanted to find a woman with whom to be for life, I thought I had succeeded when I found my girlfriend when we were 15 and 3 years later I realized I failed failing constatly for two years until this date.

What do women want? As I said it varies and sometimes is hard to tell in individual cases.

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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:15 pm

nillerz wrote:
This is going to sound mean, but women in general want somene to tell them what to do. LOGIC TIME

Cavewoman. She's chillin'. One man mildly acknowldeges her presense, but doesn't go out of his way. Another man totally does whatever she says and fills her with compliments. She's attracted to the one who's disregarding her. Why? Higher real estate. Her thing is "Which of these men is the highest-class I can get?". This sounds foreign to men because we don't think like that. We think, "Which woman is the nicest and can cook me dinner and will stick to me through thick and thin?" not "Which woman is just barely in my reach?" EVIDENCE TIME

When in middle school, high school, and beyond, who gets wimminz? The mean looking assholes.


That isn't who women settle down with though Wink

Kenzu wrote:
Sara wrote:
WoW....if someone can do everything I want and don't ask for anything.I will love him and devoted to him forever!!!


I will do everything you ask, but dont ask for things I dont want to do.

Or ro rephrase it. We should always concern about the other one.
Ask for anything we like from the other, but also do everything the other wishes.

I do everything for you, because I know you do everything for me!



@Marijah
Your post is very good! I enjoyed reading and I agree with it!


You can always *ask* but you have to respect boundaries. It's an evolutionary cycle. You never know if the other person would be willing unless you ask. Don't leave something off the table and not ask because you're afraid the other person will say "no." It doesn't hurt to ask, but it can hurt to expect the other to just give a "yes." Be reasonable. Talk it out, you'll save yourself worry and possibly walking on eggshells later.

Marijah wrote:
What do women want - in a partner?

I will try to tell you from my point of view.
But at the very virst, I want to tell you something:
This question is a bit stupid. I couldn't love a behavior, a title or rank, I can only love persons. Never try to bend yourself for a woman, it WILL ruin you. Love doesn't mean distortion. Just be yourself, open your heart and eyes.

If someone believes in me like a religion, I call him stalker, if someone do everything I want, I call him mindless, he throw away his live. I would not want anyone to give their own life up. I think I earned a real person, not a puppet as a partner. Please, don't think I am cruel and coldhearted, but this is real.
I am a romantic and emotional person, I would die for my love. This is a fruit of love, not a root.
The basic of love isn't a big event, a big happening. Small things make it happen, make him or her Mr or Mrs Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZMtPYOkrDc

If you cannot find a woman who loves you how you are, she doesn't earn to be with you!


What do women want, again?
Again, a song, but its german. I translate the most important parts.
Sometimes, woman like to be hit. ( this repeats sometimes )
Always, yes truely always, guys like you earnd a real bash!

Oh come shut the f**k of! Mens are Alpha, Women Beta? IN YOUR DREAMS PALE! You must have a lot exposure to the worst. Everyone who agrees with this shit line up and get your punishment. !-.-!

My very own opinion: Please stop thinking "men" like this "women" like that, this is no good. There is no basic difference, the eduction makes the biggest differences. Some women are creepy like hell, I wish not to meet them in dark. Oh and some men could get bashed by 6 year old girls.

Men should be strong, women beautiful. Oh come on guys ugly as hell aren't womanizer as well Very Happy and I envy sporty women. Otherwise I won't love muscles, as I already said, I love a person. Guys do not get blind by beauty, it will fade.
But love will make loved ones most beautifull forever. I experienced that.

I agree with Rename and Zealot, every woman, every man, everybody is different.

Zealot, I am sad your experience has showed you much more whorelike women, but don't judge them to hard. The media forces them into that corner, and others need this kind of behavior to protect them.

A last phrase:
Womens play with the bad boys, but take the good ones home with them.

I hope / think you stare and flirt with the whorelikes, but take the extremely intelligent, loving, beautiful, healthy, extremely sexual (and must share my sexual ideosincracy), loyal, open-minded, objective, active, conscious, thoughtful, sensible, someone who loves her work because of the sake of it, humble, non-materialist, non-income oiented, honest, don't you, Zealot? ^^

Take an example at Zealot!


Good post Smile There's a lot more to it, but this covers the basics.


Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Marijah wrote:
What do women want - in a partner?

I will try to tell you from my point of view.
But at the very virst, I want to tell you something:
This question is a bit stupid. I couldn't love a behavior, a title or rank, I can only love persons. Never try to bend yourself for a woman, it WILL ruin you. Love doesn't mean distortion. Just be yourself, open your heart and eyes.


Yet sometimes you can love those who change ensuing suffering in the future.

Marijah wrote:

If someone believes in me like a religion, I call him stalker, if someone do everything I want, I call him mindless, he throw away his live. I would not want anyone to give their own life up. I think I earned a real person, not a puppet as a partner. Please, don't think I am cruel and coldhearted, but this is real.


And what if a person's reality is to try and make you happy in all aspects possible? What if that person's pleasure is found within trying to do so?

Marijah wrote:

I am a romantic and emotional person, I would die for my love. This is a fruit of love, not a root.
The basic of love isn't a big event, a big happening. Small things make it happen, make him or her Mr or Mrs Right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZMtPYOkrDc


I didn't quite understand this part.


Marijah wrote:

If you cannot find a woman who loves you how you are, she doesn't earn to be with you!


*she doesn't deserve to be with you.

Which means if I can't find a woman who loves you as I am I should stay alone, right?

Marijah wrote:

What do women want, again?
Again, a song, but its german. I translate the most important parts.
Sometimes, woman like to be hit. ( this repeats sometimes )
Always, yes truely always, guys like you earnd a real bash!

Oh come shut the f**k of! Mens are Alpha, Women Beta? IN YOUR DREAMS PALE! You must have a lot exposure to the worst. Everyone who agrees with this shit line up and get your punishment. !-.-!


*men, in your dreams pal, deserve

So it is basically a song about a gender war... women trying to get rid off the stigma of being below men. At least in my whole life experience women have not been below men.

Marijah wrote:

My very own opinion: Please stop thinking "men" like this "women" like that, this is no good. There is no basic difference, the eduction makes the biggest differences. Some women are creepy like hell, I wish not to meet them in dark. Oh and some men could get bashed by 6 year old girls.


There is a concept on how men "should" be. Nowadays there are much less expectations on how women should be. The role of women have changed from the commited housewife to "the man" of the house.

Marijah wrote:

Men should be strong, women beautiful. Oh come on guys ugly as hell aren't womanizer as well Very Happy and I envy sporty women. Otherwise I won't love muscles, as I already said, I love a person.


And the body is part of the person.

Marijah wrote:

Guys do not get blind by beauty, it will fade.


Everyone has a different way to cope with this.


Marijah wrote:

But love will make loved ones most beautifull forever. I experienced that.


And beauty is a requisite to love for some.


Marijah wrote:

Zealot, I am sad your experience has showed you much more whorelike women, but don't judge them to hard. The media forces them into that corner, and others need this kind of behavior to protect them.


I don't judge anyone hard. I'm a gynephile, that means, I loev women and have regarded them with more respect than men always. However, most of my female friends and my girlfriend are plain whores and they know they are and sometimes call themselves that way.

Marijah wrote:

A last phrase:
Womens play with the bad boys, but take the good ones home with them.

*women

That's exactly what my girl does. In that case women play with both kinds of men just the good ones care about the consequences.

Marijah wrote:

I hope / think you stare and flirt with the whorelikes, but take the extremely intelligent, loving, beautiful, healthy, extremely sexual (and must share my sexual ideosincracy), loyal, open-minded, objective, active, conscious, thoughtful, sensible, someone who loves her work because of the sake of it, humble, non-materialist, non-income oiented, honest, don't you, Zealot? ^^


I flirt with nobody. I don't like whorelike women except as friends and they're not awesome friends either. And I have never met a girl of the second kind, maybe once or twice but being considerably older than me and alreday with someone.

Marijah wrote:

Take an example at Zealot!


Well everyone wants different kinds of lives regarding to this. Many like just to have sex or to party around with girls; others want sex slaves; others want breeding machines; others want friends with whom they have intimate relationships; others want companions.

We're all different in this aspect.... since I'm 14 years old I've just wanted to find a woman with whom to be for life, I thought I had succeeded when I found my girlfriend when we were 15 and 3 years later I realized I failed failing constatly for two years until this date.

What do women want? As I said it varies and sometimes is hard to tell in individual cases.


It does vary. However, flirting with people doesn't hurt anyone. They don't have to be whores to flirt back, just people with feelings. If you're thinking most women out there who flirt are whores, you really have a screwed up perception of women. Women flirt and like to be flirted with as it's a natural human behavior. It ups self-esteem and makes women feel sexy and most of the time, FUN. Amazing how that works yes? Flirt with your partner, your loved one. Compliment them! You'll be surprised with the wonders it brings.

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:40 pm

kismet wrote:

It does vary. However, flirting with people doesn't hurt anyone. They don't have to be whores to flirt back, just people with feelings.If you're thinking most women out there who flirt are whores, you really have a screwed up perception of women.


I don't think I ever implied anything like that. I simply stated that I don't flirt and that I don't like whorelike women at all, covering two different points brought by Marijah. In this context I'm refering to randomly flirting with women I may consider attractive in a strictly physical way, women that I don't know at all. If I ever flirt it is with a close friend who I consider to meet my requirements for a couple given that I know her well enough. I merely wanted to say I'm not "up to adventures with strangers" anymore.

As for whorelike women, such women are for me women that are constantly seducing a wide array of males in order to merely suffice sexual and/or monetary needs and/or when these females already count with a partner with whom they didn't agree on being able to do this. Lots of my friends, and my former girlfriend are like that and I simply try to keep them as friends(in the case of my exgf, I completely cut all communication), or as some of those who are already my friends refer to me as "elder brother", then to keep something like a "brother-sister" relationship. But definitely not something else.


I actually define myself as a gynephile even inspite of not having the best experiences with women.. I used to worship women as if they were godesses and my former girlfriend made me drastically change that position.


kismet wrote:

Women flirt and like to be flirted with as it's a natural human behavior. It ups self-esteem and makes women feel sexy and most of the time, FUN.


I don't think any woman should require flirting to get any of said results. And in some contexts I find it to be prohibitive, like when a woman who has a couple that doesn't consent, flirts with others.

kismet wrote:

Amazing how that works yes? Flirt with your partner, your loved one. Compliment them! You'll be surprised with the wonders it brings.


I don't tend to associate flirting with an already stablished relationship. In that context I merely call such behaviour as "being loving, attentive and honest".

Else, when I compliment a woman, I do so out of honesty, that is, because I honestly find her or at least some of her characteristics attractive.

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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:37 pm

nillerz wrote:

When in middle school, high school, and beyond, who gets wimminz? The mean looking assholes.

HUTIN!!!!

lol I agree.
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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:40 pm

Liche wrote:
nillerz wrote:

When in middle school, high school, and beyond, who gets wimminz? The mean looking assholes.

HUTIN!!!!

lol I agree.


That's just a huge LOL worthy.

But to not make this look like spam, I also agree because its true!

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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:51 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
<blah blah blah>
I don't tend to associate flirting with an already stablished relationship. In that context I merely call such behaviour as "being loving, attentive and honest".

Else, when I compliment a woman, I do so out of honesty, that is, because I honestly find her or at least some of her characteristics attractive.


Flirting is essential to an already established relationship. You consider it "being loving, attentive and honest" You can still flirt though. It's playful and fun. Without some fun (not sex!), life becomes boring.

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PostSubject: Re: What do women want - in a partner ?   Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:26 am

kismet wrote:
blah blah blah>


Ah how you love to dodge.


kismet wrote:

Flirting is essential to an already established relationship. You consider it "being loving, attentive and honest" You can still flirt though. It's playful and fun. Without some fun (not sex!), life becomes boring.


And within this context what would be the difference between flirting and what I consider it to be?

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