Deportation of Stalin into Gulag

**Riddler** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:59 am

Voice of Reason wrote:

Does somebody know whether Ivan and Riddler are joking?

I'm not joking. I've read a lot of books about Stalin where it said that most of his "crimes" was a lie of the american propoganda. He was a first socialist leader, so that explains a lot why the americans hate him.

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:01 am

Riddler wrote:

Voice of Reason wrote:

Does somebody know whether Ivan and Riddler are joking?

I'm not joking. I've read a lot of books about Stalin where it said that most of his "crimes" was a lie of the american propoganda. He was a first socialist leader, so that explains a lot why the americans hate him.

Yeah he's been satanized by inflated execution tolls, way too inflated. Many people in Russia still respect and admire him and to some extent he did some good things for the USSR, though, I'm convinced that his mistakes surpass his achievements.

**oligarch** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:49 am

He betrayed the Revolution, he's not a communist.
From what I know, the assertions that Stalin's crimes were done by the NKVD without him knowing were fabrications made by Stalin's government for obvious propaganda reasons and as a pretext for purging his own secret police after the great purges.

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:38 am

oligarch wrote:

He betrayed the Revolution, he's not a communist.
From what I know, the assertions that Stalin's crimes were done by the NKVD without him knowing were fabrications made by Stalin's government for obvious propaganda reasons and as a pretext for purging his own secret police after the great purges.

It's widely know that Stalin did order massive executions, but, just as these massive executions are true also the exageration around them is true. It is incredible how anti-Stalinist propaganda accuses Stalin of killing 100 million people without the least evidence or even use of mathematical logic, all with the mere intention to make Stalin look like a monster.

Did he betray the revolution? Yes. How? He established the basis for the Soviet state capitalism that ended in USSR's failure. Else he violated communist codes of conduct by attacking Poland, Finland and the Baltic States.

**oligarch** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:01 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

It's widely know that Stalin did order massive executions, but, just as these massive executions are true also the exageration around them is true. It is incredible how anti-Stalinist propaganda accuses Stalin of killing 100 million people without the least evidence or even use of mathematical logic, all with the mere intention to make Stalin look like a monster.

You're right,his crimes have been grossly exaggerated by propagandists, but they were still gruesome and undeniable.

Voice of Reason · Komsomol Member Posts: 183 Join date: 2008-01-12

I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

**Ryom** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:18 pm

Voice of Reason wrote:

I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

your joking Very Happy

.................. right ?
(im asking this couse i have meet people who actually belive that)

**mattabesta** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:27 pm

Voice of Reason wrote:

I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

your joking iknow pepole hows grandparents dide in the camps.

**oligarch** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:21 am

Voice of Reason wrote:

I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

Seriously....what the hell?

**Riddler** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:30 am

Voice of Reason wrote:

Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.

I've heard also that in Austria you can get in jail for denying that Hitler killed 6 000 000 jews. So much for a european democracy Laughing

**oligarch** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:03 am

Riddler wrote:

I've heard also that in Austria you can get in jail for denying that Hitler killed 6 000 000 jews.

Although undemocratic, it's still better than holocaust denial in my opinion.

**Liche** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:56 am

I voted to put him in the Gulag, even tho a lot of the bad things we hear are probably rumors, propaganda etc. I voted to this way because I think the power got to him....he did practically turn the world against Socialism/Communism.

**oligarch** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:48 am

Liche wrote:

I voted to put him in the Gulag, even tho a lot of the bad things we hear are probably rumors, propaganda etc. I voted to this way because I think the power got to him....he did practically turn the world against Socialism/Communism.

The power didn't get to him, he had been manipulating party politics in order to raise his own position long before he came to power and I'm sure he had at least some notion of what he would do once got there.

**ilych** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:48 am

oligarch wrote:

The power didn't get to him, he had been manipulating party politics in order to raise his own position long before he came to power and I'm sure he had at least some notion of what he would do once got there.

QFT

_________________
"I worked at a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a communist."
–Nikita Khrushchev

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:09 pm

Voice of Reason wrote:

I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

Ok, this paralelism is horribly wrong. You speak as if the affirmations that Stalin killed 20+ million people were as well documented and supported by as strong evidence as the Holocaust is. The magnitud of Stalin's executions are claimed to be tens of times larger than the Holocaust, yet, there's much less evidence on them even taking into account the great ammount of people that would be implied or know about those executions.

The Holocaust is EXTREMELY well documented and supported by an inmense plethora of very, very strong and substatiated evidence. Mathematical logic supports Holocaust evidence. How? It's well documented how 1rd of the whole Jewish population was killed during it. The concentration camps do exist and there are Nazi databases and survivors.

Stalin's executions are not half as well documented. Claims of Stalin's regime killing 100 million soviets defy mathematical logic for the next reason:

According to 1916s census there were 181 million people in the Russian Empire. World War I, which took the lives of 3 million soldiers and several million Russians through food shortages was followed by the Civil War which itself created economical dificulties that lead as well to a prolongation of famines which were intensified by droughts and the Kulak vs. Regime conflicts. By 1939 USSR counted with 169 million people. From 1916 to 1939, in a 26 years span USSR had lost 12 million people, mainly as a consequence of War. From that span, Stalin had ruled only since 1927, that is 12 years.

From 1941 to 1945 nearly 30 million Soviets lost their lives in WWII. Stalin reigned other 8 years after the war.

So counting from 1927 and from 1945 until 1953 that makes 20 years of peace time Stalinist regime, both in Post-War scenaries.

By the time Stalin acquired power USSR counted with 146 million people and by the time Stalin died USSR counted with about 185 million people.

If Stalin had killed 100 million people it should have been in two batches, from 1927 until 1939 and from 1945 until 1953 and USSR should have counted by 1927 with a population of at least 315 million adding to this number the lives lost in WWII and taking into account the inter-war and post war infant mortality rate.

That claim states that nearly 33 million families were exterminated by Stalin and yet people were unaware of or agreed with that. The chances are that these 33 million families, these 100 million people "researchers" claim Stalin killed, had links with at least 80 or 90% of Soviet population making impossible such large executions to be as weakly evidenced as they are.

I wonder where's the strong evidence, and I mean strong enough evidence supporting such ridiculous claims that even defy mathematical logic?

**Comrade Pollett** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:27 pm

mattabesta wrote:

BolshevikClock wrote:

industrialization and victory it the highest price

what??
i don't get it?

I mean there is no way to define Stalin as a hero or villain
when you use one it condradicts the other

**mattabesta** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:14 pm

BolshevikClock wrote:

mattabesta wrote:

BolshevikClock wrote:

industrialization and victory it the highest price

what??
i don't get it?

I mean there is no way to define Stalin as a hero or villain
when you use one it condradicts the other

ant leader would have seen the senes in industralaysation(soz)
my books say he killed 8-20 million undirectly and directly.
most of those deaths were becuse of his new idear for farming wich killed a minimum of 5 million.

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:05 pm

mattabesta wrote:

ant leader would have seen the senes in industralaysation(soz)
my books say he killed 8-20 million undirectly and directly.
most of those deaths were becuse of his new idear for farming wich killed a minimum of 5 million.

To say someone killed undirectly a population, the intention to kill should be taken into account. The conflict with kulaks had no intention to cause famines yet it caused it for both Kulaks' renuence and Stalin's wayto deal with them. But it can't count like undirect killing.

**oligarch** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:51 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

mattabesta wrote:

ant leader would have seen the senes in industralaysation(soz)
my books say he killed 8-20 million undirectly and directly.
most of those deaths were becuse of his new idear for farming wich killed a minimum of 5 million.

To say someone killed undirectly a population, the intention to kill should be taken into account. The conflict with kulaks had no intention to cause famines yet it caused it for both Kulaks' renuence and Stalin's wayto deal with them. But it can't count like undirect killing.

If he had only killed kulaks, that wouldn't have been so bad, but most of the people he killed who he claimed were kulaks were not kulaks at all, they were simply opposed to him but he said that both classes become stronger under socialism and that's why there were more kulaks after the Revolution than before it which clearly makes not sense.

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:10 pm

oligarch wrote:

If he had only killed kulaks, that wouldn't have been so bad, but most of the people he killed who he claimed were kulaks were not kulaks at all, they were simply opposed to him but he said that both classes become stronger under socialism and that's why there were more kulaks after the Revolution than before it which clearly makes not sense.

Yeah, I agree.