You hero standards

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:40 am

MightyObserver wrote:

Humanity sucks

I disagree. Regardless of that, how would that be relevant to the discussion?

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**Liche** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:13 am

My family's hero is Anthony Bourdain.

**comrade110397** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:15 pm

Liche wrote:

My family's hero is Anthony Bourdain.

NO WAY

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**MightyObserver** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:22 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

MightyObserver wrote:

Humanity sucks

I disagree. Regardless of that, how would that be relevant to the discussion?

My response to this new information. I already felt that way to a certain extent, but it is stronger now.

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**Lilith** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:58 am

Sorry Zealot, it was long before I answer, I didn't have lot of time this weekend. I'll have difficulties to answer fast this week too, I'm really buzy >.<

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

As for leaders of organizations, it certainly depends on the organization I'd say. You mention Green Peace. Green Peace literally does nothing but to trouble whalers, obstruct bulldozers and such things... but they have no consideration whatsoever about the impact of the economic system on nature. Given that fact, I wonder how could green peace members, acting within just the framework of action of Green Peace, be heroic to the cause of preserving the environment.

This is only the first example I found but you’re right in fact. I wouldn’t really consider Green Peace organization as heroic. They try to change society but it’s not enough. Maybe “Equita”‘s a better example, but it didn’t change the world –yet!-. It’s a pretty good idea though, but it was made by the workers to benefit themselves so that couldn’t really be “heroic”, but they illustrate well the example of “trying to change the world into something better”, in my views.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

What I meant is how could a shareholder, for example, be considered heroic if not fighting (in a considerable way) against the condition that allowed him to be a shareholder in the first place?

Some may argue (capitalism apologists) that capitalists could be even heroic for "creating job sources" and giving their "innovations" to the world (capitalism's apologists often confuse "innovator" with "capitalist").

Then I would argue that creating job isn’t enough to be considered a hero. It helps the capitalist economy, not the society and its people to evolve or nothing. It’s just part of the “natural cycle” of capitalism, which doesn’t really concretely change anything.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

The sleflessness of his action is found within his intention "to preserve the integrity of the capitalist system, battle laziness (or even worse, "soldiering" a broader concept if we're to use Frederick Taylor's terminology) and restore property rights".

Yeah, but those arguments are nil in fact. They don’t really support the common well-being as they encourage exploitation. Then, it cannot be considered as heroic.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

I was not adressing those who are faithful but the church. And I sincerely don't think that the church is fundamentally or even conceptually "good" (or let's better say "with the intention to help majorities") since it is entirely based on domination and exploitation through faith which can translate into domination by disemination of fear, ignorance and the notion of salvation through submission.

It changes all then! Smile

Yeah, I think the same about church. The only thing they did was stealing poor families and do other atrocities (priest raping women, burning women because they said they were witches, etc.) They used this stolen money to buy golden sculptures as people were dying in the streets because they didn’t have enough to feed themselves. They sold “allegiances” that were supposed to reduce the time people had to spend at the purgatory before they go paradise. This is really stupid. They are the best “power abuse” example of whole time. Just take a look to their golden sculptures and marbled floor. Disgusting.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

The important thing here is to avoid subjective terms and focus in objective definitions.

For example: I believe a hero is someone that sacrifices himself for the cause of socialism, that is, who risked or gave his life or put at stake his integrity struggling for the stablishment and preservation of a system where the workers control the economy democratically.

Or: I believe doctors to be heroes because the objective of their profession is to save lifes while they assume the great responsability of having the future of those lives in his hands and dedicating sometimes massive ammounts of time, effort and concentration to the end of saving those lives.

Or: I believe that a worker who works extra time to gain surplus resources to give them exclusively to support disabled people is a hero because he's "sacrificing" his free time to benefit other people than can't look for themselves.

Etc. No good or bad, just concrete concepts.

Ohww, I didn’t know that’s what you expected to receive as answer ^.^ Nonetheless, it restricts a lot the nuance of the meanings “hero” could have. I mean, I don’t personally think that doctors, someone with a certain quality or people who defend a certain type of ideology are all necessarily heroes. And even if I think, for example, that doctors are all heroes, it doesn’t necessary means they are the only one that could be considered as heroes in my view.

What I wanted to point out is mainly that those examples, even if the meaning is concrete, cannot be generalized.

Thanks ^.^

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:34 am

Lilith wrote:

Sorry Zealot, it was long before I answer, I didn't have lot of time this weekend. I'll have difficulties to answer fast this week too, I'm really buzy >.<

It's ok, don't apologize Smile

Lilith wrote:

It’s a pretty good idea though, but it was made by the workers to benefit themselves so that couldn’t really be “heroic”, but they illustrate well the example of “trying to change the world into something better”, in my views.

Then we'd go back to your definition of "heroism" Smile

Lilith wrote:

Then I would argue that creating job isn’t enough to be considered a hero. It helps the capitalist economy, not the society and its people to evolve or nothing. It’s just part of the “natural cycle” of capitalism, which doesn’t really concretely change anything.

The problem here is the subjectivity of heroism. Capitalism's apologists may say that great capitalists are heroes for "making the economy grow", "make society progress" and give lots of jobs because those may be their parameters of heroism.

Lilith wrote:

Yeah, but those arguments are nil in fact. They don’t really support the common well-being as they encourage exploitation. Then, it cannot be considered as heroic.

The thing is that from a capitalist's or capitalism's apologist's point of view, that could be heroic for they don't give a damn about common well-being and don't believe exploitation to exist within their economic framework. As they see it, the soldier is preserving property rights and "reacting to force", that is "eliminating force".

Lilith wrote:

It changes all then! Smile

Yeah, I think the same about church. The only thing they did was stealing poor families and do other atrocities (priest raping women, burning women because they said they were witches, etc.) They used this stolen money to buy golden sculptures as people were dying in the streets because they didn’t have enough to feed themselves. They sold “allegiances” that were supposed to reduce the time people had to spend at the purgatory before they go paradise. This is really stupid. They are the best “power abuse” example of whole time. Just take a look to their golden sculptures and marbled floor. Disgusting.

Indeed. That's why I strongly oppose the church, historically it's been nothing but an exploitative and manipulating institution which has perpetrated and supported some of the greatest crimesagainst humanity from limiting humanity's development to outright mass murder and rape.

Lilith wrote:

Ohww, I didn’t know that’s what you expected to receive as answer ^.^ Nonetheless, it restricts a lot the nuance of the meanings “hero” could have. I mean, I don’t personally think that doctors, someone with a certain quality or people who defend a certain type of ideology are all necessarily heroes. And even if I think, for example, that doctors are all heroes, it doesn’t necessary means they are the only one that could be considered as heroes in my view.

What I wanted to point out is mainly that those examples, even if the meaning is concrete, cannot be generalized.

I didn't mean that I expected those replies but that kind of reply. Concrete definitions of what people consider heroic even if for them a hero is someone that eats cookies because it keeps the cookie industry running. All I want is concrete definitions of what each of you consider a hero. All I said were just examples.

I have my personal views on what I consider heroic but I'll express them later once I see more concrete definitions of heroism according to people.

Lilith wrote:

Thanks ^.^

To you too dear Smile

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:56 am

Liche wrote:

My family's hero is Anthony Bourdain.

Explains things geek

.

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Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Liche** · Subject: Re: You hero standards Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:14 pm

CoolKidX wrote:

Liche wrote:

My family's hero is Anthony Bourdain.

Explains things geek

.

I was watching hi, last night with my dad.