Religion in a communist society

**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:49 pm

beatnikzach wrote:

religion should be banned because it is an incarnation of the state.
it is fueld by money which is of course financed by exploitation.
however not exploiting ones labor but ones fears.
but that is just my belief.

Who would enforce this ban? Would this not lead to the building of a new state, or at the very least take steps toward building a new state?

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if i was to be born in a society completely equal were my religion was taken i would consider dieing for the right

Of what religion are you a part of?

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You can't ban belief.

But you can ban the right for them to gather in practice of a belief.

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Islam, Morman, Christian, Jewdiism, even most likely Hinduism and Buhdism as well, need to chage to flow with the views of society.

What's the point of being religious if you aren't going to follow it's doctrines? In most cases, i would say, that defeats the purpose, but i could be wrong.

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Namely race relations, tolerance, and views on homosexuals, as well as women, and what the rest of humanity considers normal for laws and crime and punishment. For example, women showing their bodies as illegal? Not acording to most of society. Stoning? Not an aacceptable punishment.

This is what i'm talking about. If it says that these things are proper and moral in your religion, you must, by the religion's (usually) clearly stated rules, adhere to those rules. Religion, as far as i know, doesn't say anything about following societal norms. If anything it usually says things about influencing societal norms.

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Namely race relations, tolerance, and views on homosexuals, as well as women, and what the rest of humanity considers normal for laws and crime and punishment. For example, women showing their bodies as illegal? Not acording to most of society. Stoning? Not an aacceptable punishment.

This has hardly anything to do with religion and the way it is generally, "correctly" handled.

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Anyway, back to my previous point, religion would be more than welcom as long as it adherres to societal norms in order to prevent certain violent peoples.

But it doesn't adhere. God, in the christian religions, has given believers the divine right to break laws that are unjust. And unjust to christians is much different than unjust to you and i. They get their perception of good and bad from the bible, not the same place we get our perceptions.

_________________
"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--

**Liche** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:22 am

When your born they should have to crawl to a bible or science textbook. Which ever you go to is what you belive.

If you go to the Textbook we'll have some complicated BS for why your not religious.

If you go to the bible/holybook you are told a bunch of dogmatic stuff about god guiding you towards the fate.

Voice of Reason · Komsomol Member Posts: 183 Join date: 2008-01-12

Banning Religion?
Well of course, if you are an all powerful autocratic leader, which is the only way any kind of communism can work, you can forbid it. Just like Thinking, Loving, Hoping, Feeling or else. The thing is would the people obey you? or resist?
Religion or at least faith is nothing you can decide on whether you have it or not. A human being must have faith in some kind of divinity because thats part of our souls.
Well you could still turn us into Cyborgs.

@anarchist.dagger: Where do you get your perceptions from?

Watermelon · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:51 pm

a society without a government can only be an autocracy?

i see how you got your username

_________________

"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990

accept green or die!!!

my name is evyindur H haarde

Voice of Reason · Komsomol Member Posts: 183 Join date: 2008-01-12

A society without a government does not exist or it wouldn't be a society.
What do you mean? Anarchy?

**Riddler** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:33 pm

Voice of Reason wrote:

Banning Religion?
Well of course, if you are an all powerful autocratic leader, which is the only way any kind of communism can work, you can forbid it. Just like Thinking, Loving, Hoping, Feeling or else. The thing is would the people obey you? or resist?
Religion or at least faith is nothing you can decide on whether you have it or not. A human being must have faith in some kind of divinity because thats part of our souls.
Well you could still turn us into Cyborgs.

Greatly said! Only that it's not definitly communist to forbid something natural.

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**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:38 pm

Voice of Reason wrote:

Banning Religion?
Well of course, if you are an all powerful autocratic leader, which is the only way any kind of communism can work, you can forbid it.

Let's not be foolish. Whenever you say something like this, which is utterly false, you lose points with most people here, which means they are much less likely to believe anything you say in the future. At least try to grasp the basic meaning of communism. Enough of this "i am because i say i am" bullshit, okay? I can say i'm the pillsbury dough boy, but it's not true. Just like China can say they are communist, but it's not true.

There would be no way to forbid religion in a communist society because in order to do so, you would need someone to enforce it, thereby constituting a police force. Then you would need a place to prove their guilt, constituting the judges and courtrooms. Then you would need someplace to send the guilty, constituting the prisons. And all these would constitute law and a new government, which would only give way to more law, surely.

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Just like Thinking, Loving, Hoping, Feeling or else. The thing is would the people obey you? or resist?

Absolutely they would resist, and for good reason.

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Religion or at least faith is nothing you can decide on whether you have it or not. A human being must have faith in some kind of divinity because thats part of our souls.
Well you could still turn us into Cyborgs.

More made up fairyland bullshit, i see. No, not all people have faith in a deity. I don't, so i've already proven you wrong. Unless you plan to tell me what is going on in my mind?

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@anarchist.dagger: Where do you get your perceptions from?

My surroudings. My environment. My logic (Not to claim that logic is universal). It just so happens that the bible and the christian religion were a part of my environment at one point, but no longer.

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A society without a government does not exist or it wouldn't be a society.

That hardly makes sense.

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What do you mean? Anarchy?

He meant communism, but it's the same thing in it's essence.

_________________
"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--

Watermelon · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:35 pm

yes i meant anarchy. yes i meant communism. i dont believe in supernatural shet eether. AD does but i dont believe in moralitay.

_________________

"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990

accept green or die!!!

my name is evyindur H haarde

Voice of Reason · Komsomol Member Posts: 183 Join date: 2008-01-12

Anarchist.Dagger wrote:

More made up fairyland bullshit, i see. No, not all people have faith in a deity. I don't, so i've already proven you wrong. Unless you plan to tell me what is going on in my mind?

Well I also think that Psychology is mainly fairytales, but according to the classes I took Faith is the basic necessity for culture building. Thus needed to develop social skills.

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@anarchist.dagger: Where do you get your perceptions from?

My surroudings. My environment. My logic (Not to claim that logic is universal). It just so happens that the bible and the christian religion were a part of my environment at one point, but no longer.

You get your perceptions from the culture that your surroundings embody.
And guess what, that is based on "roman law, greek logic, germanic virtues and CHRISTIANITY".
(read Ivan Illych 's books for further Reading)

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A society without a government does not exist or it wouldn't be a society.

That hardly makes sense.

The basis for a society are rules which ensure peaceful cohabitation, which have to be installed by a government. Without such rules you just have some people at one place, but not a society.

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What do you mean? Anarchy?

He meant communism, but it's the same thing in it's essence.

[/quote]

I don't think that Anarchy and Communism are the same thing. Really.

Watermelon · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:48 pm

name on diference of anarchy and comunism.

no government both

_________________

"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990

accept green or die!!!

my name is evyindur H haarde

Voice of Reason · Komsomol Member Posts: 183 Join date: 2008-01-12

Well communism needs a government, as well as bureaucracy and enforcers. ANarchy is Anarchy. No gov, no law, no enforcers. (theoratically)

Watermelon · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:06 pm

communism also has no gov no law no enforcers. wut propoganda are you reading? marxs capital for beginers? lol

_________________

"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990

accept green or die!!!

my name is evyindur H haarde

Voice of Reason · Komsomol Member Posts: 183 Join date: 2008-01-12

Someone tell the kid, what he`s talking about.
In theory anarchist communism can exist, but most theories for the estblishment of communism acknowledge the necessity of a gov, law and enforcers.

Watermelon · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:24 pm

i hav never heard of a theory of comunism that requires government. name one and i promise i shal kil myself.

_________________

"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990

accept green or die!!!

my name is evyindur H haarde

**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:53 pm

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Someone tell the kid, what he`s talking about.
In theory anarchist communism can exist, but most theories for the estblishment of communism acknowledge the necessity of a gov, law and enforcers.

Let's get this out of the way first. Communism is no different from anarchism, ideally; gift economy, free association, no law, government, authority. In the transitional state (the establishment of, as you so called it) there is a difference. Marxists believe in utilizing the state and authority for their means, whereas anarchists wish to do away with authority and the state altogether, immidietely.

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i hav never heard of a theory of comunism that requires government. name one and i promise i shal kil myself.

That's not what he said. Read it again.

Voice of Reason wrote:

Well I also think that Psychology is mainly fairytales, but according to the classes I took Faith is the basic necessity for culture building. Thus needed to develop social skills.

Faith, maybe (i don't care to debate this right now), but that doesn't mean faith in an omnipotent being. Just because you have faith, doesn't mean you have faith in god.

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You get your perceptions from the culture that your surroundings embody. And guess what, that is based on "roman law, greek logic, germanic virtues and CHRISTIANITY".
(read Ivan Illych 's books for further Reading)

Yes, but this hardly means my beliefs and values are in line with Christian morals. Of course i believe you should treat others how you wish to be treated. Of course i believe you shouldn't kill. Just because they happen to be in the bible and in my head doesn't mean i got them from the bible.

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The basis for a society are rules which ensure peaceful cohabitation, which have to be installed by a government. Without such rules you just have some people at one place, but not a society.

Baloney. I doubt, even if you looked in the dictionary that you would find that laws and a government are essential for having a society.

Governments cannot ensure peaceful cohabitation; i defy you to name one instance of this. If anything, they are the source of the perpetuation of violence in society. They take away freedoms and punish (usually when punishment will have no effect on the outcome) with violence or the threat of violence (which is no better).

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I don't think that Anarchy and Communism are the same thing. Really.

The end game for both is the same. They merely differ in their theory of how to achieve this end. I explained this above, so i won't go into it again.

_________________
"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--

Watermelon · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:38 pm

you read again foo thats esacly wut he said

wel to bad i car to debate you foo. why tha hel you believ in faith. i knew you wer idealist. i hait fathe. you have gon over to the dark side. faith-head biblethumper.

_________________

"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990

accept green or die!!!

my name is evyindur H haarde

**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:05 pm

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you read again foo thats esacly wut he said

Are you being childish or foolish? I can't tell. This is what he said, quoted.

Voice of Reason wrote:

In theory anarchist communism can exist, but most theories for the estblishment of communism acknowledge the necessity of a gov, law and enforcers.

I bolded it since you obviously didn't read, or chose to disregard, this segment of his statement, hence your misunderstanding. ML, MLM, Trotskyism to name just a few that believe in the necessity of a government in the transitional period... I don't understand why you would reply to something without understanding what it means first.

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wel to bad i car to debate you foo. why tha hel you believ in faith. i knew you wer idealist. i hait fathe. you have gon over to the dark side. faith-head biblethumper.

What are you talking about? I was merely humoring him. That's why i said "maybe" and, in parentheses "i don't care to debate this right now".

Your childish banter is annoying me.

_________________
"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--

Watermelon · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:11 pm

"you litel child foo blablabla"

dud lisent to me. ur an adult. WOW YOUR OLD I GIVE A FLYING FUCK!

whie dont you go to ur nurseng home to whine aboot the yung wippersnappers that ar coming on your lawn? im sure theyl be vary intarested. but ples dontt tel me thes bulshet. tel it to someone who cairs.

plus he said theries for COMINUSM. MLM= MARXISM
TORTISM=MARXISM

THERS A DIF BETOUINE MAERXESM AND COMINUSM

_________________

"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990

accept green or die!!!

my name is evyindur H haarde

**Jeiro Sijakeuigwan** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:16 pm

OMFG! BACK TO TOPIC HEREZ!

I think religion in a communist society should be allowed, after all, who's gonna stop small groups of people. No harm done really.

If it's a mass, like the Vatican or whatnot, then that should be throughly investiaged into any alligations of corruption and whatnot.

Which, the Vatican would always fail. lol

_________________
"I'll live on...in the hearts of the people I know... It's my own choice now."

**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: Religion in a communist society Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:10 pm

Watermelon wrote:

plus he said theries for COMINUSM.

You fail once more...

Voice of Reason wrote:

theories for the estblishment of communism

The ideologies i listed are theories for the establishment of communism.

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I think religion in a communist society should be allowed, after all, who's gonna stop small groups of people. No harm done really.

The truth is, there would be no real, effective way to stop them. It would take a police force to keep an eye on them and stop them from organizing and participating in religion, which as i've said before, is a big step in the direction of a new state.

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I think religion in a communist society should be allowed, after all, who's gonna stop small groups of people. No harm done really.

Corruption? Like what, for example?

_________________
"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--