Converting to Communism?

**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Mon May 18, 2009 4:33 pm

1/4 troll I'd say. Maybe less.

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Mon May 18, 2009 7:42 pm

CoolKidX wrote:

enviro wrote:

another quick question
does everyone get what the WANT or what they need?

Yes, because the needs are determied by everyone.

enviro wrote:

how will jobs be decided?

They'll be determined by the needs. Supposing that by "jobs" you mean "work" or laboural roles".

enviro wrote:

why should someone who takes out the trash get the same pay/things as someone who is a doctor

Why should anyone get a pay and why should an individual have the right to determine the freedom of another human being both directly and inirectly? (that's how capitalism works in case you haven't noticed)

And no, it doesn't work like that. If it has been decided by the community, taht is, all the workers, that picking up the trash is a less valuable work than a doctor's then said work will be worth less having this worth directly determined by both those who need their trash picked up and those who pick up the trash.

enviro wrote:

communism relies to much on the good will of humans

More on humanity's capability to reason and for abstraction which are essentially what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

CoolKidX wrote:

and who will decide at what time you will got to work? And when it ends?

You together with the rest of the workers within the community where you live.

Do you all think humans are so stupid as not to be able to organize and altogether coordinate one of the most essential collective tasks as economy? (Before replying to this think that you are humans yourselves)

Tyrlop wrote:

what is better than perfect?

Since I didn't claim such a thing I don't see why I should reply such a question. Besides, according to the definition of "perfect", there can't be something better than perfect.

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Mon May 18, 2009 7:59 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

You together with the rest of the workers within the community where you live.

Do you all think humans are so stupid as not to be able to organize and altogether coordinate one of the most essential collective tasks as economy? (Before replying to this think that you are humans yourselves)

But if someone does not agree with the time set, it won't go on right?
I mean, that's is a pain in the arse to decide at waht time.
Every individual wants his own time to go to work and when to go back at home, me, I like to sleep some more in the morning, others may want to work some earlier and get back earlier etc.

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Mon May 18, 2009 8:05 pm

CoolKidX wrote:

But if someone does not agree with the time set, it won't go on right?

It will, he will just have to deal with the consequences of not agreeing which will depend on the organizational scheme set by the rest, that of course supposing he remains within the community.

CoolKidX wrote:

I mean, that's is a pain in the arse to decide at waht time.
Every individual wants his own time to go to work and when to go back at home, me, I like to sleep some more in the morning, others may want to work some earlier and get back earlier etc.

It's not at all a pain in the arse, my friend. There are lots of things that wouldn't demand more than 3-hours shifts allowing for literally 8 different shifts and 21 hours of free time. With 21 hours of free time a day as determined by yourself and your colleages.... how can you complain about time?

We often overwork in capitalism because we're not sufficing our needs - we're sufficing other people's "needs" to get richer by struggling to suffice our needs in accordance to their rules. We don't work to objectively suffice what society needs but what the owners and controllers of economy want.

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**Tyrlop** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Mon May 18, 2009 8:48 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Tyrlop wrote:

what is better than perfect?

Since I didn't claim such a thing I don't see why I should reply such a question. Besides, according to the definition of "perfect", there can't be something better than perfect.

what word is better to use then perfect? since perfect is subjective what word would be better to use in this case.

**Jesus** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Mon May 18, 2009 9:41 pm

And now may i ask, wtf does that have to do with the original topic?

Stop digressing.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Mon May 18, 2009 10:21 pm

hey hey
i though we were talking communism
communism has a goverment

and zel your thing sounds flawless
there is no way that every single person will agree

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**MightyObserver** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Tue May 19, 2009 2:39 am

enviro wrote:

hey hey
i though we were talking communism
communism has a goverment

No. It most certainly does not. I'm sure Zealot will be able to direct you to one of the many threads on which he has explained it.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Tue May 19, 2009 3:07 am

then wat is socialism?

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Tue May 19, 2009 6:16 am

Tyrlop wrote:

what word is better to use then perfect? since perfect is subjective what word would be better to use in this case.

"subjective" doesn't mean "negative" or "impossible" to use. It means that its interpretation depends on each individual.

"Good" its superlatives (better, best) and "perfect", just like "bad" and its superlatives (worse, worst) are subjective. What may be good for you may not be so good for me and may be horrible for someone else.

That's what "subjective" stands for.

My concept of perfection in regards to something may differ from yours, enviro's, Kenzu's, etc.

enviro wrote:

then wat is socialism?

A synonim for "communism".

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**Tyrlop** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Tue May 19, 2009 10:59 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Tyrlop wrote:

what word is better to use then perfect? since perfect is subjective what word would be better to use in this case.

"subjective" doesn't mean "negative" or "impossible" to use. It means that its interpretation depends on each individual.

"Good" its superlatives (better, best) and "perfect", just like "bad" and its superlatives (worse, worst) are subjective. What may be good for you may not be so good for me and may be horrible for someone else.

That's what "subjective" stands for.

My concept of perfection in regards to something may differ from yours, enviro's, Kenzu's, etc.

what would be better to use then the word perfect if you want it to be objective?

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Tue May 19, 2009 4:57 pm

Tyrlop wrote:

what would be better to use then the word perfect if you want it to be objective?

You can't be objective in this regard unless there's a common agreement on what is perfect and what is not.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Thu May 21, 2009 11:03 pm

so sociliasm=ruled by the people
and communism ruled by the goverment is bullshit?

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Thu May 21, 2009 11:11 pm

enviro wrote:

so sociliasm=ruled by the people
and communism ruled by the goverment is bullshit?

Socialism=Workers rule=communism

There's no government in communism (unless you call the entire population taking all decisions government) so the idea of a government-based communism is contradictory, therefore yes, bullshit.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Thu May 21, 2009 11:17 pm

now that i got that strait
would communism work in a republican way or democratic or both
or is every person going to have a vote

and how would industry survive in your land and economy with others.

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Thu May 21, 2009 11:24 pm

enviro wrote:

now that i got that strait
would communism work in a republican way or democratic or both
or is every person going to have a vote

Grassroots democracy, in other words real democracy not the bullshit statist system known today as democracy. "republican way" tells me absolutely nothing, if linked in any way to the republican party of the US, then no, if linked to its ethymological roots, perhaps however those ethymological roots are ambiguous enough.

enviro wrote:

and how would industry survive in your land and economy with others.

I didn't know industry lived in the first place... I guess we're gonna feed it and take care of it.

Industry comes from the need to satisfy needs massively, all it takes is cognoscitive capabilities, workforce, resources and a need to suffice in order to exist, since all this will be present in socialism, industry will be present as well, meaning it "survives". How? By people working on it to suffice their needs.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Thu May 21, 2009 11:26 pm

republician=roman style

and hell yah inustry lives, if dies and grows
and if your "commune" doesnt have money and industry, how will you get things that you cant produce in your area
grain?
furits?
animals?
not all of them live everywhere

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Thu May 21, 2009 11:35 pm

enviro wrote:

there is no way that every single person will agree

Thank you.

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"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

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**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Thu May 21, 2009 11:53 pm

enviro wrote:

republician=roman style

Ah so we're all dressed in robes and our buildings made of marble? Still doesn't tell me much, politically speaking that is.

enviro wrote:

and hell yah inustry lives, if dies and grows

And doesn't fuck? That's sad, industry's got a sad life cycle...

enviro wrote:

and if your "commune" doesnt have money and industry, how will you get things that you cant produce in your area

Now you're speaking about specific organizational schemes within communism, not about communism itself.

Some of us socialists favor decetralized industrial communities, operated and ruled by themselves, but centrally coordinated with others in a rationing framework. Basically all workers within a certain region and different kinds of industries will be coordinated with each other through councils to suffice each other's needs.

Other socialists like Anarcho-Syndicalists (and that if I get them well) favour trade unions per industry, for example, a trade union of construction workers which would comprise all civil engineers, masons, carpenters etc. within all regions and that would be centrally coordinated within itself to cover big enough regions. These trade unions would trade with other trade unions what they produce fro what they need, in other words, contruction workers would trade houses for food and food industry workers would trade food for houses.

And so on, there are several proposed systems and I personally favour rationalist, cooperativist and well coordinated scientific systems over more individualistic, alienationist and trade-based ones (like anarcho-mutualism).

Some even propose labour credits to acquire what is socially determined as luxurious, like DeLeonism.

The main is that workers control directly the economy, determine needs themselves and the methods to suffice them.

CKX wrote:

there is no way that every single person will agree

1. What for do you need to get every single person to agree? It could be 3,000 million couples in which part one agrees with part two. Eventually, the necesary interaction between these couples forces them to agree on basic interaction norms including, for example, the definition of words and teh way to use them, in other words, the creation of common languages and common understandings.
2. If every single human disagrees with each other (which is impossible) the implications of said disagreement would show up immediately forcing people to agree. Interdependant beings that need interaction can't alienate themselves totally form each other.
3. Humans are interdependant social beings, like it or not we depend on each other not only on ourselves and anyone can understand that given the proper knowledge and attention given to the topic. We need to interact and we need to create methods of interaction and we've done it already (again, take a look at language), methods of organization. Our needs will determine together with our resources, knowledge and reasoning these methods of organization.

I'm still wondering why you people think humans are too stupid to organize even when you're humans yoursleves and these truths are as patent as the sky... you just need to look at them.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: Converting to Communism? Fri May 22, 2009 12:26 am

maybe i may be mistaken
but you did not answer my question on how communes would trade with capitalistic communities

and roman as in 100 people elect 1 person as a representitive

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