stubroness

**enviro** · Subject: stubroness Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:01 am

is it a good thing?

while you may tell a nazi his views are wrong, he ownt stop, even when presented with impulsing evidence his actions are wrong.

but what about telling people that a system they belive in (communism,anarchism,green,ETC) is flaweed, is that a good type of stuborness

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:59 pm

What is a stubroness actually if I may ask..?

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**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:23 pm

^^ Stubbornness*.

And to the OP, why would you accept an ideology and fiercly resist it at the same time?... No, stubbornness is not good.

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"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--

**enviro** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:44 pm

not even when defedning your country
you dont want to be stuborn and not give up+

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**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:20 pm

I thought you meant as a personality trait, cos otherwise the answer is quite obvious; yes. Certainly there are things which need to be fiercly resisted, with force if necessary. I really don't think there's any disagreement on this.

_________________
"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:13 pm

Black_Cross wrote:

I thought you meant as a personality trait, cos otherwise the answer is quite obvious; yes. Certainly there are things which need to be fiercly resisted, with force if necessary. I really don't think there's any disagreement on this.

However, I don't think "stuborness" would apply in that scenario. As fasr as I know stubbornness refers to "senseless resistance" while it would be more proper to refer to the second case, perhaps, as perseverance.

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**Alek4A** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:22 pm

enviro wrote:

is it a good thing?

while you may tell a nazi his views are wrong, he ownt stop, even when presented with impulsing evidence his actions are wrong.

but what about telling people that a system they belive in (communism,anarchism,green,ETC) is flaweed, is that a good type of stuborness

i dont know enviro, IS stubroness a bad thing? i'm not quite sure what stubroness is... i am however positive that being litterate is a good thing.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:32 pm

alek4
why you gotta hate
and i bet im more litterate than you, i just type really fast and dont check if i spelled right, i really dont care

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**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: stubroness Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:29 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Black_Cross wrote:

I thought you meant as a personality trait, cos otherwise the answer is quite obvious; yes. Certainly there are things which need to be fiercly resisted, with force if necessary. I really don't think there's any disagreement on this.

However, I don't think "stuborness" would apply in that scenario. As fasr as I know stubbornness refers to "senseless resistance" while it would be more proper to refer to the second case, perhaps, as perseverance.

Even if this is the case (i don't think it is, but i could well be wrong), enviro's word choice woulda just been poor, but my point remains; there's no discussion that being rigid (which is what enviro meant) at times is a good thing.

PS - Alek, Enviro, you both spelled literate wrong... heh

_________________
"A market economy must comprise all elements of industry including labor, land and money [...] But labor and land are no other than the human beings themselves of which every society consists and the natural surroundings in which it exists. To include them in the market mechanism means to subordinate the substance of society itself."
--Karl Polanyi--

**enviro** · Subject: Re: stubroness Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:35 am

did we really?
and yes, but what i ment is i have met alot of people who DEFENED not stop policies that are wrong and stupid(proven) like I.D but what my question really is why do they do that
its like philosophy

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**Kenzu** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sun May 10, 2009 1:12 am

saying something is flawed is useless. You should put real arguments WHY it is flawed.

Fascism for example is flawed, because the idea of extreme nationalism can only lead to hatred and wars and that's not what most people want.

Fascism won't rise as long as people remember what it has brought to us.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sun May 10, 2009 9:21 pm

but what about communism
i may not be a flawed system, but counties calling themselves communist have ruined the image

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sun May 10, 2009 9:31 pm

enviro wrote:

but what about communism
i may not be a flawed system, but counties calling themselves communist have ruined the image

Indeed, maybe we have two sort of communism, Communsim und communism, note the capital C.

_________________
"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sun May 10, 2009 9:33 pm

Communism does indeed have flaws. One I can think of right now, which capitalism is also suceptible to, is corruption. A look at the vast majority of societies in the last century that have been comunist is a good example, and obious one, too. Capitalism's corruption is rarely as blatant.

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sun May 10, 2009 10:28 pm

CoolKidX wrote:

Indeed, maybe we have two sort of communism, Communsim und communism, note the capital C.

That differentiaton with capital C is absolutely pointless. It's teh same word to refer to the same system.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Communism does indeed have flaws. One I can think of right now, which capitalism is also suceptible to, is corruption. A look at the vast majority of societies in the last century that have been comunist is a good example, and obious one, too. Capitalism's corruption is rarely as blatant.

Which societies? And how can there be corruption without government?

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**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: stubroness Sun May 10, 2009 10:53 pm

Please tell me, Zeal, that you're not going to stand there and say that Stalinist Russia wasn't corrupt, or Castro's Cuba?

Now, I know those aren't communist in the truest sence, and are called communist only by the ignorant, but another good example would be a union. They are, in essence, a communist ideal. And I already discussed that.

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon May 11, 2009 2:05 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Please tell me, Zeal, that you're not going to stand there and say that Stalinist Russia wasn't corrupt, or Castro's Cuba?

I'll just say they're not communist and limit to say communism is impossible to corrupt for there's no parameter of corruption for society (at least not in the sense employed in this context).

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Now, I know those aren't communist in the truest sence, and are called communist only by the ignorant, but another good example would be a union. They are, in essence, a communist ideal. And I already discussed that.

A union of what kind?

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**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon May 11, 2009 3:01 am

As I undertand commuism, the workers who amde a product give it out to those who need it. If they don't like a specific grioup and deny them the use of that product, corruption.

As for unions, I mentioned it before, how auto unions have become corrupt, giving away rights.

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon May 11, 2009 3:09 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

As I undertand commuism, the workers who amde a product give it out to those who need it. If they don't like a specific grioup and deny them the use of that product, corruption.

Nope. Communism is where workers own means of production and coordinate them, their production and its distribution democratically to suffice their needs. If a group of workers denies a product to another group of workers, the most possible outcome is meerely mutual denial, thus lack of organization, but not corruption.

However such a scenario would require too irrational individuals, irrational as to deprive themselves of their needs.

TK wrote:

As for unions, I mentioned it before, how auto unions have become corrupt, giving away rights.

Auto unions?

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**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: stubroness Mon May 11, 2009 3:55 am

Quote:

Auto unions?

Yes?

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest