Mikhail Gorbachyov

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:46 am

CoolKidX wrote:

But Zealut...hmm yea, u live in Mexico things arnt rlly..."good" there, u got some rich ppl there to , don't take it as an insult.

Things are the fucking same way everywhere. When I was in France I saw poverty, I noticed hostility. When I was in Germany the same, when i was in Austria the same, when I was in Spain the same, when I was in Russia the same. It's just in different ways.

The only reason you Europeans, Unitedstatians and Japanese can allow yourselves "easier" lives than those of most countries is because all those countries under you allow it. They prefer to be clients dependant on you than compete against you. That's one of the main problems.

So you got shitholes like Monaco that actually have per-capita incomes 100-200 times larger than those of inmesnely richer African nations. That's plain stupid. It escapes logic how can oil, soil, mineral rich nations can actually be poorer than a strip of land shorter than the line of metro between my home and my university.

The only reason countries like Mexico, Brazil, South Africa or are not richer than Japan is because of capitalism. It's a fucking hindrance. Instead of doing an effort and develop their own technology they go and buy Japanese technology making themselves dependant on a much weaker and poorer country than them but with enough balls to develop its own technology. Making it richer by the day and allowing it gain power over them.

That was starting to change during Cold War. Finally someone stood up and neither the European empires nor USA nor Japan liked it: Russia. USSR has been the greatest threat world empires have ever faced. "The evil empire", the only fucking nation as strong as an empire but that wouldn't join the stupid world-conquest club and instead would cause troubles to it. Had it been communist the G-7 would have been long ago fucked up.

Had USSR been really socialist... That's why you all are glad it collapsed. During its existance it was the only thing on this planet really making your fucking CEO and Presidents shit their pants. The only little hope the oppressed peoples of the world had.

Now many Russians think they'll live better by mimicking the stupid empires without yet realizing that they'd have to stop being Russian to do so. At least this system will keep th giant dormant. Gorby di a great job by selling USSR.

Capitalism is just an easy but uneffective way out for problems. It's like you got a leak on a tube and you just tap it with chewing gum. It leaks again and you put more chewing gum. It disallows people to think on the really important things of life. It makes humans behave like animals - struggling for survival at the rate those who have gained strength through generations set. That's sick. Even some animals have more honorable organisation systems. Of course, from a socialist perspective in which you want everyone to have a good life, in which you want surroundings to be respected, in which you want everything to work well.

More straight to the question.... is life nicer in the Netherlands, in Austria, in Spain, in Switzerland? By capitalist standards, yes. Is life easier? By capitalist standards, a bit. But for someone like me who hates making money and exploiting people and who hates selling things it's the same hell in different languages, with different rules with different parameters.

So once again, my concept of freedom and happiness differs for yours. And if to achieve them I have to make you miserable, I won't regret it. .

**Jeiro Sijakeuigwan** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:15 am

Thank you, Zealot. ALL of the are the EXACT reasons why I hate capitalism. People say it cannot be achieved because communism, a pure system which is almost like the PERFECT family, is TOO perfect. Too nice. Too kind for humans to even compenhend.

Even the manhwa I read send a communistic message. That humans, whenever they are oppressed, do ANYTHING to get their way. Kill others without remourse, with pity. Under oppressed conditions, they LOVE to hurt and kill the entire world. They FEEL they are invinicible.

While if you just LOOK at a small rural village, they live life with love and happiness. NO conflict, they abide by the rules of law of coexistance equilibilium. They try their best to avoid unnecessary conflict and you know what?

It works.

_________________
"I'll live on...in the hearts of the people I know... It's my own choice now."

**mattabesta** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:53 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

No, I haven't got a good life. I can't work freely because I need to make money, my work should be for profit not to help society, I can't stroll freely in the street without fear some mutherfucker will come and kill me for 10USD, without watching people starving on the street, without being in a fucking hostile environment the whole fucking time. I hate this way of living, I simply hate it. I can't trust that girls are not money-sucking bitches, everything turns around the fucking money, capitalist profit and interests in others. Life is stupid, unpleasant that way. At least for someone like me who loves everything in this life but money.

really caan't say anything about this othere than it's easy to get anothere job wich pays moar if you really want to you jkust need to stop blaming capitalism on the bad parts of life.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

You don't have a fucking clue on what poverty is, don't speak about it, you haven't even seen it.

what? what makes you think I haven't seen povrety I know what povrety is in MY eyes but your concept is clearly diffrent.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

I want everyone to have a decent life, I want people to get along together, I want mutual assistance not mutual exploitation. I want peace and real freedom. I want real democracy. I want money to stop existing.

evryone is onthere way to a decent life zealot the market is taking care of that very slowly but steadely.
Real democracy?? wtf what makes you think it's rigged?
why do you think money is the root of all problems????????????????
money is just here to make exhanging good easyer.
as wik says:
Money is anything that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.[1] The main uses of money are as a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value.[2] Some authors explicitly require money to be a standard of deferred payment.[3]

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

You can't define what's good or bad, those are relative terms, subjective terms. What's good for you is not good for me and what's good for me is not good for you.

Those who agree with my concept of good will fight along my side and those who agree with your concept of good will fight alongside yours. And in the end the concept most agree with will prevail. As simple as that.

no that won't happen as long as democracy exsist communism will also
exsist, however communist revelution reqiers evryone to aggree wich means all capitalists=dead.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

For me freedom is not to be able to buy 4 TVs, 2 cars and 10 houses. For me freedom is tranquility, love, friendship, health, work, love for our surroundings and our society. That's real freedom for me. If your freedom is the first I got to crush it to have mine. And if to get my freedom I have to crush yours... WITH PLEASURE I WILL!

lol in my perfect society it'S the freedom to do ANYTHING as long as it dose not hurt otheres.
LOL that´was really communist.

_________________
stos wrote:
I'm with the left commies on this one.

I'm not back I'm just bored to death.

''Any society that would give up a little liberty, to gain a little security, will deserve neither and lose both.'' - Benjamin Franklin

**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:10 pm

Ok first off u got in ANY single country an raper and thief an mugger u there always vandlists, u blame evrything on capatalism cause u mad about your life cause you can't have anything u want, so u want that u have things that evryone have, i'm not rich either but im happy about my life cause i got the freedom to buy whatever i want, i can watch TV i can go on the computer, i'm glad i got an good education system, yea sure sometimes i think i hate my school but i will change my mind when i got older.
Because u dont have a good life dosnt mean u have to change ALL lives some ppl mare glad with there lifes, and if your big "revoltuion" comes u force ppl to have the same ways as you.

_________________
"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:55 pm

mattabesta wrote:

really caan't say anything about this othere than it's easy to get anothere job wich pays moar if you really want to you jkust need to stop blaming capitalism on the bad parts of life.

Is it perhaps because you're Icelander and you still got to improve your reading comprehension... perhaps.

I never said I don't do a lot of money. In fact, last year for a person in my conditions I made shitloads of money selling apartments an activity I HATE. And my family is actually in a very good economical position in respect to the majourity of, not only Mexican population but world's population. My uncle has got a thriving construction company of which my mother has 10% shares, both have agreed to give to my brother and me their 80% of shares in half as we grow older. And I've declined.

You know why? BECAUSE I FUCKING HATE MAKING MONEY! That was my point, I hate that my work has to serve to make money and nothing else, I hate businesses. I hate that just in order to get money one has to do things that one realy hates. Like me selling apartments and later even almost becoming Director of Commecialization. Stupid jobs that give no satisfaction but the tranquility that within this stupid economic framework you'll have some freedom.

And now I can just imagine the suffering and limitations workers have to pass through... it's just nepharious, depressing...

mattabesta wrote:

what? what makes you think I haven't seen povrety I know what povrety is in MY eyes but your concept is clearly diffrent.

You live isolated in a bubble of happiness and prosperity. Not only protected by your family but by your country's position as a G-7 alimunium, energy and fish producing province.

I have a real concept of poverty since I got a much closer glance at it than you. Not only have I experienced it I live day by day observing it. In the street, in the metro at my university. Fucking poverty is everywhere. And by poverty I mean having to worry wethere you'll be able to afford tomorrow's meal or not.

mattabesta wrote:

evryone is onthere way to a decent life zealot the market is taking care of that very slowly but steadely.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Not only is this from my perspective ludicrous, even from a very objective perspective.

mattabesta wrote:

Real democracy?? wtf what makes you think it's rigged?

When did I say it was rigged? You don't even need to make this futile attempt at democracy we have now to make it fail. It's failed from its very same foundations.

Democracy is not "I voted", it implies much more than that. Much more.

mattabesta wrote:

why do you think money is the root of all problems????????????????

It's one of the roots. It firstly gives an abstract arbiotrary value to things dettaching from the real value they may have. Then it creates individual economies, inividual opposing economies in competition. It foments greed and unequality.

mattabesta wrote:

money is just here to make exhanging good easyer.

And the exchange of goods is another problem in my view. It's against societal organisation or logical parameters.

mattabesta wrote:

as wik says:
Money is anything that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.[1] The main uses of money are as a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value.[2] Some authors explicitly require money to be a standard of deferred payment.[3]

I don't believe salary and trade to be neceary parts of economy, in fact I consider them a hindrance. Economy should be most efficient, scientific and organised and must fulfill the goal to suffice societal needs.

mattabesta wrote:

no that won't happen as long as democracy exsist communism will also
exsist, however communist revelution reqiers evryone to aggree wich means all capitalists=dead.

Somewhat unintelligible reply. What I meant, in case it was not clear to you, that you have your concept I have mine and those who agree with me will be by my side and those who agree with you will be by yours. In discussions, in manifestations in battle, wherever, whenever. I'm just talking about the difference of concepts of what is good and bad, their subjectivity and that the one supported by most will prevail.

mattabesta wrote:

lol in my perfect society it'S the freedom to do ANYTHING as long as it dose not hurt otheres.

In capitalism that's impossible since interests are always in conflict.

mattabesta wrote:

LOL that´was really communist.

You can't tell, you don't know communism.

CoolKidX wrote:

Ok first off u got in ANY single country an raper and thief an mugger u there always vandlists, u blame evrything on capatalism cause u mad about your life cause you can't have anything u want, so u want that u have things that evryone have, i'm not rich either but im happy about my life cause i got the freedom to buy whatever i want, i can watch TV i can go on the computer, i'm glad i got an good education system, yea sure sometimes i think i hate my school but i will change my mind when i got older.

It's incredible how you immediately jump off to the "restented failed burgeoise" theory on why some are communist.

First of all, you always will get criminals, indeed, but it's a proven fact that free-market capitalism stimulates their existance. It's a damned fact. The more prosperous the nation the lesser this may be, but it's a fact free-market capitalism foments this. And it's been proven in studies compairing Warsaw Pacts countries in that era with how they are in this era and with other nations. Crime rates have climbed terribly, mental illness has increased as well. Prostitution and narcomany has also raised a lot. New phenomena have appaeared.

For example, my girlfriend's uncle was a policeman during USSR's time. He said that in his jurisdiction during soviet times there were no more than 2 murders a year. Now in the same juriscition there are about 2 murders weekly, Lots more of rapes, narcomany )or drug additction) and trade are rampant while they were nearly unexistant in pre-Gorbachyov times and still pretty scarce during Gorbachyov times. That's not coincidence.

CoolKidX wrote:

Because u dont have a good life dosnt mean u have to change ALL lives some ppl mare glad with there lifes, and if your big "revoltuion" comes u force ppl to have the same ways as you.

Most people in this world is unsatisfied with their lives. Most people break teir backs in futile attempts to raise their living standards. I'm not talking about Niceland and The Neverlands, I'm talking about the world east, shoutheast, south and southwest from your spheres of happiness and well being, about those whose misery you thrive on.

If for the freedom and happiness of 80% I have to crush those of the 20%, I will. I'll pitty that 20% but I won't let their boot over me.

**mattabesta** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:36 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Is it perhaps because you're Icelander and you still got to improve your reading comprehension... perhaps.

Wtf??

Quote:

I never said I don't do a lot of money. In fact, last year for a person in my conditions I made shitloads of money selling apartments an activity I HATE. And my family is actually in a very good economical position in respect to the majourity of, not only Mexican population but world's population. My uncle has got a thriving construction company of which my mother has 10% shares, both have agreed to give to my brother and me their 80% of shares in half as we grow older. And I've declined.

You know why? BECAUSE I FUCKING HATE MAKING MONEY! That was my point, I hate that my work has to serve to make money and nothing else, I hate businesses. I hate that just in order to get money one has to do things that one realy hates. Like me selling apartments and later even almost becoming Director of Commecialization. Stupid jobs that give no satisfaction but the tranquility that within this stupid economic framework you'll have some freedom.

And now I can just imagine the suffering and limitations workers have to pass through... it's just nepharious, depressing...

dosn't sound like money sucks it sounds like your Job
sucks.

Quote:

You live isolated in a bubble of happiness and prosperity. Not only protected by your family but by your country's position as a G-7 alimunium, energy and fish producing province.

I have a real concept of poverty since I got a much closer glance at it than you. Not only have I experienced it I live day by day observing it. In the street, in the metro at my university. Fucking poverty is everywhere. And by poverty I mean having to worry wethere you'll be able to afford tomorrow's meal or not.

so I can't possebly know povrety becuse iceland is
8 times richere than maxico????
wtf?

Quote:

That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Not only is this from my perspective ludicrous, even from a very objective perspective.

why do you say that it's a fact that proportionally fewer starve evry year moar have safe drinking water aids medicaen in africa is growing and
poor asians are in risk of extermination in the next 3-5 decades.

Quote:

Democracy is not "I voted", it implies much more than that. Much more.

Democracy is a system of government by which political sovereignty is retained by the people and exercised directly by citizens. In modern times it has also been used to refer to a constitutional republic where the people have a voice through their elected representatives.

Quote:

It's one of the roots. It firstly gives an abstract arbiotrary value to things dettaching from the real value they may have. Then it creates individual economies, inividual opposing economies in competition. It foments greed and unequality.

no it makes exhanging goods easyere if there wun´t be money we would just use some thinge elese like cows and cattel wich was used widly
or frozen tea that was used in siberia.

Quote:

And the exchange of goods is another problem in my view. It's against societal organisation or logical parameters.

I give you my stuff and you give me your stuff isn't that exacly what communism is about?

Quote:

I don't believe salary and trade to be neceary parts of economy, in fact I consider them a hindrance. Economy should be most efficient, scientific and organised and must fulfill the goal to suffice societal needs.

nothing to say to that it's just dumb.

Quote:

Somewhat unintelligible reply. What I meant, in case it was not clear to you, that you have your concept I have mine and those who agree with me will be by my side and those who agree with you will be by yours. In discussions, in manifestations in battle, wherever, whenever. I'm just talking about the difference of concepts of what is good and bad, their subjectivity and that the one supported by most will prevail.

i know it's just funny to see your replyes.

Quote:

In capitalism that's impossible since interests are always in conflict.

wtf I said MY dream

Quote:

You can't tell, you don't know communism.

umm joke, jokias joliko? whatever suits you.

Quote:

It's incredible how you immediately jump off to the "restented failed burgeoise" theory on why some are communist.

First of all, you always will get criminals, indeed, but it's a proven fact that free-market capitalism stimulates their existance. It's a damned fact. The more prosperous the nation the lesser this may be, but it's a fact free-market capitalism foments this. And it's been proven in studies compairing Warsaw Pacts countries in that era with how they are in this era and with other nations. Crime rates have climbed terribly, mental illness has increased as well. Prostitution and narcomany has also raised a lot. New phenomena have appaeared.

For example, my girlfriend's uncle was a policeman during USSR's time. He said that in his jurisdiction during soviet times there were no more than 2 murders a year. Now in the same juriscition there are about 2 murders weekly, Lots more of rapes, narcomany )or drug additction) and trade are rampant while they were nearly unexistant in pre-Gorbachyov times and still pretty scarce during Gorbachyov times. That's not coincidence.

well my uncel said [.....................Insert unbackesshithere...................]

Quote:

Most people in this world is unsatisfied with their lives. Most people break teir backs in futile attempts to raise their living standards. I'm not talking about Niceland and The Neverlands, I'm talking about the world east, shoutheast, south and southwest from your spheres of happiness and well being, about those whose misery you thrive on.

If for the freedom and happiness of 80% I have to crush those of the 20%, I will. I'll pitty that 20% but I won't let their boot over me.

w8 we won't have to work as much in communism but our living standards are raised and evry one get all they want???? wow.

_________________
stos wrote:
I'm with the left commies on this one.

I'm not back I'm just bored to death.

''Any society that would give up a little liberty, to gain a little security, will deserve neither and lose both.'' - Benjamin Franklin

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

mattabesta wrote:

Wtf??

I said that because it's obvious you still have problems understanding texts in English.

mattabesta wrote:

dosn't sound like money sucks it sounds like your Job
sucks.

Again, you need to improve your understanding skills.

If I say I hate to make money I'm attacking the lucrative action, taht is I hate that my job serves to bring money. I hate to have to use money. I hate to have to make money.

mattabesta wrote:

so I can't possebly know povrety becuse iceland is
8 times richere than maxico????
wtf?

No, you can't possibly know what poverty is because you have no exposition to it whatsover.

mattabesta wrote:

why do you say that it's a fact that proportionally fewer starve evry year moar have safe drinking water aids medicaen in africa is growing and
poor asians are in risk of extermination in the next 3-5 decades.

Did you get these figures from Dreamland Journal or what? AIDS is increasing everywhere, drinking water is becomeing more scarce all around the globe, inflation is rampant, starvation is increasing.

mattabesta wrote:

Democracy is a system of government by which political sovereignty is retained by the people and exercised directly by citizens. In modern times it has also been used to refer to a constitutional republic where the people have a voice through their elected representatives.

Love to copy and paste huh? Democracy can be simply put as "power of the people". How can irresponsible, ignorant and unexperienced populations excert power?

mattabesta wrote:

no it makes exhanging goods easyere if there wun´t be money we would just use some thinge elese like cows and cattel wich was used widly
or frozen tea that was used in siberia.

Being against trade, I find money a hindering tool.

mattabesta wrote:

I give you my stuff and you give me your stuff isn't that exacly what communism is about?

Of course not.

Government manages all production and distribution of goods so that all can be given an equitative share.

mattabesta wrote:

nothing to say to that it's just dumb.

The only possible kind of answer someone without arguements can come with.

mattabesta wrote:

well my uncel said [.....................Insert unbackesshithere...................]

Well, if you're going to disregard the object of study how the f**k do you pretend to study it?

mattabesta wrote:

w8 we won't have to work as much in communism but our living standards are raised and evry one get all they want???? wow.

It's incredible how lacking of comprehension you are...

No. We won't work less, simply the production will be targetted at satusfying everyone's needs instead of satisfying consumerism.

Living standards won't be measured the same way they are in capitalism.

And no, not everyone will get what they want. If you want 50 horses and 7 houses you won't get them.

**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:26 am

But if you let your workes work for the stuff they need, its trade to.
Work<-->Products

_________________
"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:56 am

CoolKidX wrote:

But if you let your workes work for the stuff they need, its trade to.
Work<-->Products

That's not trade. Work is simply the method through which necesities are satisfied. In a communist society work provides goods and services while the action of working makes workers eligible for their rights, in other words, goods and services. It's not trade it's simply as long as you work you have rights, as long as you don't you don't have rights.

**mattabesta** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:21 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

CoolKidX wrote:

But if you let your workes work for the stuff they need, its trade to.
Work<-->Products

That's not trade. Work is simply the method through which necesities are satisfied. In a communist society work provides goods and services while the action of working makes workers eligible for their rights, in other words, goods and services. It's not trade it's simply as long as you work you have rights, as long as you don't you don't have rights.

exacly the same thing he was tlking about work=Food( or rights)

_________________
stos wrote:
I'm with the left commies on this one.

I'm not back I'm just bored to death.

''Any society that would give up a little liberty, to gain a little security, will deserve neither and lose both.'' - Benjamin Franklin

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:20 pm

mattabesta wrote:

exacly the same thing he was tlking about work=Food( or rights)

He was saying it was traded. And it's not traded. It's merely a condition to be able to participate in society. You work you're in, you don't you're out.

**Tyrlop** · Subject: Re: Mikhail Gorbachyov Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:07 pm

Gorbachev is saving USSR