Hobbes Vs. Locke

**enviro** · Subject: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 3:11 am

we are currently reading lord of the flies(an amazing book) which explores hobbes and lockes opinions

Hobbes stated the following:
man is naturaly born evil and savage.
the only reason he stays good is becuase society is watching.
people will revert to savageness when "big brother" isnt watching.
People crave someone to make decisions(a king).
people prefer the social contract

Locke says:
people are born with blank slates.
people are bad or good because of the experinces around them

who do you belive.
i personally say hobbes. I have seen a lot of bad things happen when the school authorities arent watching. If that is what people do when no one is watching at school, what about other places.(and example is swearing.)

state your opinion and why
im trying to be serious so dont "derail" this

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**MightyObserver** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 3:53 am

.

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**WeiWuWei** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 5:52 am

I'd take Locke over Hobbes any day. I absolutely loathed Leviathan; it is, essentially, the quintessential handbook for despots.

As for Locke, I mean, he's not great, but I think some of his views are interesting. I think that his views on natural rights are decent. And, actually, I like his labor theory of property - but I sort of take his theory and severely bastardize its original meaning to make it legitimize communal ownership, as opposed to the kind of private ownership that he favored. I could elucidate on that, but I'm super-tired and don't feel like it.

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**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 6:26 am

Locke is right, hoever in order to survive any human CAN, not always but CAN be one of the single most savage creatures in existance.

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest

**enviro** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 12:53 pm

i think it depends on the case, but in most i agree with hobbes. people turn evil and savage, and not becuase of thier aup-brining.

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 1:58 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Locke is right, hoever in order to survive any human CAN, not always but CAN be one of the single most savage creatures in existance.

I second this mad genius.

_________________
"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 8:38 pm

enviro wrote:

i think it depends on the case, but in most i agree with hobbes. people turn evil and savage, and not becuase of thier aup-brining.

Accordin to your own initial post, you're not following what Hobbes says. Hobbes is stating that people are born savage and evil and are just good because society is watching.

Funny... so a bunch of evildoers keep other evildoers from commiting evil. This doesn't make the least tadbit of sense.

I shit on Hobbes any day.

We humans are naturally social beings, interdependant. We thrive as communities, we need each other. How can we naturally be "evil" when our entire existance and development is (or should be) based on constructive interaction?

Not only is Hobbes assertion (accrding to the OP) ridiculous, it's been proven wrong numerous times.

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**enviro** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Thu May 07, 2009 11:08 pm

so gas lockes

many people act evil when society isnt watching just becuase they can?
you cant assert your opinion that locke is right over hobbes, and both are liable thoerys?

also what is your view on the social contract?

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why do i need a sig

**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Fri May 08, 2009 12:32 am

Quote:

many people act evil when society isnt watching just becuase they can?

Nobody's perfect. I know it's a lame excuse, but true.

Zeal's right, we're social beings, however if personal survival comes into question, more often than not society can suckle my cockle. And yes, it need not be just about society. Plain and simple, everyone is different, and no human condition is 100% predictable.

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest

**enviro** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Fri May 08, 2009 12:43 am

but you cannot say hobbes is wrong?
what your saying(and im aggre ing to) is that both are right in vertain people and certain conditions?

is that waht your saying?

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why do i need a sig

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Fri May 08, 2009 1:18 am

enviro wrote:

so gas lockes

Eh?

enviro wrote:

many people act evil when society isnt watching just becuase they can?

I wonder... when isn't society watching? Most crimes or "evil acts" are commited under "societal surveillance" (whatever that is supposed to mean).

enviro wrote:

you cant assert your opinion that locke is right over hobbes, and both are liable thoerys?

I didn't even mentione Locke, however he does make far more sense than Hobbes.

enviro wrote:

also what is your view on the social contract?

It is absolutely pointless. Objectivity is required.

People develop in accordance to their material conditions: from their bodily charactersitics (forged by genes, mother's health during pregnancy, mother's capability to feed herself, etc.) to their natural and social environments.

People are not born "evil", people are at best born mentally ill or disabled and this won't even mean they'll be "evil". A hostile community breeds hostile individuals, an environment in which individuals are materially limited will have their capabilities greatly limited and so on.

And as Tyrong said, if survival is threattened, people will search for ways to preserve their integroty even if at expense of the community for example through theft, murder, blackmailing, kidnapping etc. Oh wait... this is what society is exactly based on right now... I wonder why so many individuals are that hostile and frustrated and why so many individuals are unable to understand simple yet essential truths...

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**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Fri May 08, 2009 5:10 am

Quote:

is that waht your saying?

Yeah. Basically.

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest

**Black_Cross** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Fri May 08, 2009 8:04 pm

Quote:

I shit on Hobbes any day.

I don't need to go in depth here since there's really been no substantiation of Hobbes ridiculous assertion, so i'll just say i agree with above quote.

Quote:

in order to survive any human CAN, not always but CAN be one of the single most savage creatures in existance

I think it goes a little deeper than just survival, but this is a pretty big problem we're looking at today.

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--Karl Polanyi--

**Tyrong Kojy** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Fri May 08, 2009 8:42 pm

Quote:

I think it goes a little deeper than just survival,

Yeah. Sorry if I made it sound like that. Things are indeed more complicated than jsut survival, but it was an aexample, is all.

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Fri May 08, 2009 9:26 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Quote:

I think it goes a little deeper than just survival,

Yeah. Sorry if I made it sound like that. Things are indeed more complicated than jsut survival, but it was an aexample, is all.

Your point was clear enough I'd say, just maybe some won't pay attention to the full extent of what you implied.

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**Liche** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Sat May 09, 2009 12:34 am

I like Locke.

**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Sat May 09, 2009 12:45 pm

Locke is k.

But Hobbes might be right to.

_________________
"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Zealot_Kommunizma** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Sat May 09, 2009 4:39 pm

CoolKidX wrote:

But Hobbes might be right to.

So you're desperatly wanting the screw others over and don't do that just because you fear punishment?

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**CoolKidX** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Sat May 09, 2009 4:58 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

CoolKidX wrote:

But Hobbes might be right to.

So you're desperatly wanting the screw others over and don't do that just because you fear punishment?

Not me, but I might think others do actually.

_________________
"In war, there are no unwounded soldiers."--Jose Narosky

"A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities; an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." --Reginald Mansell

Eazy-er Said Than Dunn

**Liche** · Subject: Re: Hobbes Vs. Locke Sat May 09, 2009 5:59 pm

I actually didnt know much about Hobbse until this thread Razz