|
Goto page :  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  |
| Author | Message |
|---|
Guest
Guest
|  Subject: Re: Morals - Why?  Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:44 pm | |
| is this a political provocation?
can you show me where I do not allow moral freedom? |
|
  | |
Kenzu
Experienced Party Member
Age : 21
Joined : 17 Aug 2007
Posts : 802
Location : China - Shanghai
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:46 pm | |
| My question is: Why are people morally averse to things like drugs, prostitution, pornography, and the like?
Because all these things are harmful to people/ or they exploit people.
-drugs destroy your health and are heavily addictive
-prostitution is sexual exploitation, because it is done for money.
If the woman would like it, she would do it for free
-pornography is also often done with poor people who have no other chance earning as much money. |
|
| | |
Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:53 pm | |
| | Quote: | | if you want to be allowed to continue trade with others, you must do your fair share of the work. |
| Quote: | | Why should we use resources on people who are not willing to contribute? |
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 848
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:57 pm | |
| ^^ Yes, and? Those are quotes of me, but they don't pertain to any of your attacks about me not being communist...
You said it yourself, "From each according to his ability, To each according to his need". If they are unable to contribute, that is much different from being unwilling. You're twisting my words to meet your needs. If someone is disabled or in some other way unable to work, they should be taken care of, absolutely.
But if they are "able", and choose, instead, to leech off of the labour of everone else, why, in your mind, should this be tolerated?
| NJNP wrote: | | if you want to be allowed to continue trade with others, you must do your fair share of the work. |
This quote was just a manner of speaking. Doesn't mean i believe there will be money.
| MarxistFreeman wrote: | is this a political provocation?
can you show me where I do not allow moral freedom? |
Me? If so, i wasn't responding to anything you said.
| Quote: | | -drugs destroy your health and are heavily addictive |
"Certain drugs" are heavily addictive. And what gives you the right to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their own body?
| Quote: | -prostitution is sexual exploitation, because it is done for money.
If the woman would like it, she would do it for free |
I don't see how that follows, logically. If she likes it AND can make a living out of it, why should she not?
Not to mention that almost everything in a capitalist society is exploitation. Every proletarian will have to choose which way they want to be exploited, that's about as far as the choice goes.
In a communist society there would be no profit, so why couldn't she take this up as her job if it is something the community wants. As long as she contributes, i don't see why it should be banned.
| Quote: | | -pornography is also often done with poor people who have no other chance earning as much money. |
In the context of capitalism, sure. But think outside this context since we are, indeed, communists. Would it still be be exploitation if no one is profiting from it?
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
|
| | |
Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:47 pm | |
| | Quote: | | But if they are "able", and choose, instead, to leech off of the labour of everone else, why, in your mind, should this be tolerated? |
Everyone will work according to their ability. That's the only way communism will happen in the first place.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 848
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:49 pm | |
| | Pannekoek wrote: | | Everyone will work according to their ability. |
And you know this for a fact? I think you're giving people too much credit. You really think nillerz would work according to his ability?
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
|
| | |
Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:52 pm | |
| There would have to be socialism first to eliminate class antagonisms but yes.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 848
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:27 am | |
| | Pannekoek wrote: | | There would have to be socialism first to eliminate class antagonisms but yes. |
And? How does that ensure people are doing work according to their ability? That just means there's no competition.
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
|
| | |
Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:32 am | |
| Because alienation is gonn. like the breeze.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:03 am | |
| | NoJustice.NoPeace wrote: | | Pannekoek wrote: | | There would have to be socialism first to eliminate class antagonisms but yes. |
And? How does that ensure people are doing work according to their ability? That just means there's no competition. |
Lenin admitted that there would have to be some amount of "bourgeois right" within socialism until the ability to truly meet peoples needs according to their own ability is truly reached.
Workers will be given as much as they have given to society in some aspects.
You can't abolish bourgeois ideology immediately and completely from society.
Democracy in itself contradicts a classless society so...thats an example of "bourgeois right" that will remain in socialist society |
|
| | |
Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:08 am | |
| I was readin the proletarian revolution and the renegade kautsky(very thorough pwning of karl) and there is no such thing as "pure" democracy. democracy is for one class. proletarian and bourgeois democracy. Democracy is always a dictatorship.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:09 am | |
| | Pannekoek wrote: | | I was readin the proletarian revolution and the renegade kautsky(very thorough pwning of karl) and there is no such thing as "pure" democracy. democracy is for one class. proletarian and bourgeois democracy. Democracy is always a dictatorship. |
i am so fucking proud of you emy |
|
| | |
Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:20 am | |
| They have all lenin's and marx's and trotsky's works on marxists.org lenin is so awesome and funny. he pwns people very awesomely.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 848
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:18 am | |
| | Quote: | | Because alienation is gonn. like the breeze. |
Just like that? What do you suggest, killing them? Brainwashing them? What does this entail?
| Quote: | | Democracy in itself contradicts a classless society |
Not if class antagonisms are gone, as Pannekoek suggests. This would only be the case during socialism, no?
| Quote: | | You can't abolish bourgeois ideology immediately and completely from society. |
Who made this claim?
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
|
| | |
Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:55 am | |
| | NoJustice.NoPeace wrote: | | Quote: | | Because alienation is gonn. like the breeze. |
Just like that? What do you suggest, killing them? Brainwashing them? What does this entail? |
Simply placing everyone just as close to the means of production as workers abolishes alienation from the means of production.
| Quote: | Democracy in itself contradicts a classless society
Not if class antagonisms are gone, as Pannekoek suggests. This would only be the case during socialism, no? |
Democracy in and of itself is the repression of one group by another and is necessary only in a state of scarcity. A communist society is a classless one in a state of abundance
| Quote: | You can't abolish bourgeois ideology immediately and completely from society.
Who made this claim? |
Lenin
but he put emphasis on "immediately" that the state and "bourgeois right" will whither away as society moves closer to a communist one |
|
| | |
Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:19 pm | |
| Socialism still has class antagonisms. They mst be eliminated to proceed to communism.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
revolution
World Republic Party Member
Age : 908
Joined : 15 Oct 2007
Posts : 759
Location : Virginia
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:35 pm | |
| | NoJustice.NoPeace wrote: |
Me? I don't think i do. I'd love it if you contributed.
I just wanna know why some people on this site cling to 'morals'. |
So people don't steal, kill, and rape just because they feel like it.
_________________
 |
|
| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 848
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:05 pm | |
| | MarxistFreeman wrote: | | Simply placing everyone just as close to the means of production as workers abolishes alienation from the means of production. |
But this requires a transitional period. It's not just gone out of nowhere. That's the only point i was attempting to make.
| Quote: | | Democracy in and of itself is the repression of one group by another and is necessary only in a state of scarcity. A communist society is a classless one in a state of abundance |
I don't believe in political democracy, so i won't argue with this. I didn't know this is what you meant.
| Quote: | | Quote: | You can't abolish bourgeois ideology immediately and completely from society.
Who made this claim? |
Lenin
but he put emphasis on "immediately" that the state and "bourgeois right" will whither away as society moves closer to a communist one |
Heh, ya, i know that. I meant, who made the claim that it is possible to immediately abolish bourgeois ideology?
| Quote: | | So people don't steal, kill, and rape just because they feel like it. |
Morals don't stop this from happening. Everyone has these morals, and yet people steal, kill and rape.
And again, my question was more geared to communists on this site that believe it's right to put restrictions on things like pornography, prostitution, drugs and the like. I shouldve made that clear, my fault.
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
|
| | |
Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:34 am | |
| [quote="NoJustice.NoPeace"]| MarxistFreeman wrote: | Simply placing everyone just as close to the means of production as workers abolishes alienation from the means of production.
But this requires a transitional period. It's not just gone out of nowhere. That's the only point i was attempting to make. |
you are absolutely correct. Socialism is the transitional state. Abolition of privatized means of production in itself is a major bound though.
| Quote: | Democracy in and of itself is the repression of one group by another and is necessary only in a state of scarcity. A communist society is a classless one in a state of abundance
I don't believe in political democracy, so i won't argue with this. I didn't know this is what you meant. |
alrighty
| Quote: | | Quote: | You can't abolish bourgeois ideology immediately and completely from society.
Who made this claim? |
Lenin
but he put emphasis on "immediately" that the state and "bourgeois right" will whither away as society moves closer to a communist one
Heh, ya, i know that. I meant, who made the claim that it is possible to immediately abolish bourgeois ideology? |
Reformists, anarchists, idealists... |
|
| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 848
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Morals - Why? Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:15 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Reformists, anarchists, idealists... |
Someone you know? I don't know any anarchists that actually believe that's possible; that there won't be a counter-revolution. Or are you refering to pre-Bakunin? Because theory before him was almost non-existent.
Hell, i don't even know any reformists who believe this.
And of course, if someone does believe this, they are idealist, so there's no arguing with the third.
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
|
| | |
|
Home
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
