| Who does political work offline? |    |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
|  Subject: Re: Who does political work offline?  Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:24 am | |
| I think all Marxists should join one group to discuss Marxism, even if they don't all agree. Then we will be united especially if the party uses democratic centralism, which I now support.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:25 am | |
| | I love you emy |
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mononokifool
World Republic Party Member
Age : 19
Joined : 30 Mar 2008
Posts : 686
Location : Florida
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:25 am | |
| | Pannekoek wrote: | | I think all Marxists should join one group to discuss Marxism, even if they don't all agree. Then we will be united especially if the party uses democratic centralism, which I now support. |
Even us reformist?
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http://themarxistyouth.forumotion.com/index.htm |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:27 am | |
| Whoah there. I am just a young child. I'm not yet ready to get into a physical realtionship. Especially with a male that's 4 years older than me. Btw, how do you join the ICL.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
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Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 850
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:27 am | |
| | Quote: | The ICL won over the most revolutionary of the Black Panther party and they are still with us today. The rest of the Leaders are mostly either in prison or in the Capitalist democratic party
Just last week we spoke to some ex-panthers and they are going to study with us |
That's great, there is a lot of miscommunication about goals and means within the party. If it dissolves into a purely reformist party, then i'll be happy; at least then i know the ICL is getting stronger. Unfortunately, though, there is still some talent and good people within the panther party whose talents would be wasted at that point; hopefully they'll find their way out if this happens.
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Youth is revolutionary |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:28 am | |
| What's bad about the ICL?
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
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| | |
Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:33 am | |
| He is not saying it's bad.
To NJNP, we seek to win those great members over to class struggle politics and revolutionary INTEGRATIONISM rather than black nationalism.
to emy, you have to demonstrate to party members that you have a full and thorough knowledge of marxism, agree to adhere to the programaatic discipline as a party (democratic centralism), and demonstrate your ability to defend the party's points and then write and application. This is usually a fairly long process |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:35 am | |
| Oh. That doesn't sound fun. And anyway, I agree that a party needs to teach the workers but still I don't understand why the party needs to be professional revolutionaries carrying out the revolutino for the workers.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
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| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 850
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:40 am | |
| | Quote: | | To NJNP, we seek to win those great members over to class struggle politics and revolutionary INTEGRATIONISM rather than black nationalism. |
I wish you, and your party, the best of luck.
| pannekoek wrote: | | Oh. That doesn't sound fun. And anyway, I agree that a party needs to teach the workers but still I don't understand why the party needs to be professional revolutionaries carrying out the revolutino for the workers. |
Then you may not be ICL material. They firmly believe in vanguardism. I don't necessarily disagree to having a vanguard since, by definition, we communists are indeed the vanguard, but there must be certain precautions taken to ensure they don't give up on the revolution once they (vanguard) become the elite (like stalin).
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Youth is revolutionary
Last edited by NoJustice.NoPeace on Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:41 am | |
| we aren't seeking to carry it out FOR the workers we are the revolutionary leadership into socialist revolution and will help the found a marxist workers state afterwards. As Class antagonisms become more acute, winning them over to maxism will become much easier, We seek to organize the un organize workers and it would be foolhardy to believe that we can win every single worker over in a time of revolution. It will be the Vanguard's duty to find these workers and win them over to the side of the Marxists during such a time of sharp class struggle
and Studying with them is quite fun. They are nice people, they challenge you intellectually, you get the chance to sell the Worker's Vanguard paper in public and at union houses and debate with adults and make them feel dumb, you make friends and become close to your comrades, they are seriously like my family...they let me stay overnight before protests and will pay for my dinner when my mother is being bitchy...
they are the best thing to have ever happened to me |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:42 am | |
| Yeah that is the only part I disagree on with mark. I don't support the vanguard carrying out the revolutin for the workers and I think all power should go to the soviets.
EDIT: So you don't want to revolt for the workers and you will give all power to the soviets? If so I will support the ICL.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
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| | |
Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:48 am | |
| I am talking about the revolution explicitly.
After the capitalist state is smashed.
The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets
There is no material basis for corruption in a workers state and no one will have a monopoly on violence. Armed self defense my friend. All power will be given to the worker soviets
quote by lenin
"These gentlemen work today, obeying the capitalists; they will work even better tomorrow, obeying the armed workers"
No one wil have a monopoly on violence and so will have no more power than anyone else |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:50 am | |
| Hmm... I'll consider this for a while. I'll get back to you if I convert to Trotskyism.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:51 am | |
| tis' inevitable...
that was a quote from State and Revolution btw |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:53 am | |
| Inevitable that I convert to trotskyism? Yeah, probably is. I used to be an anarchist. At this rate I'll be a stalinist in no time lol. I do want to hear NJNP's input on this though.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:53 am | |
| I do too
and don't even joke about stalinism...
*shudders* |
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Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 850
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:53 pm | |
| I'm comin, I'm comin...
| Quote: | | "These gentlemen work today, obeying the capitalists; they will work even better tomorrow, obeying the armed workers" |
Unfortunately this was not the case (or even close to it).
| Quote: | | The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets |
How can you be sure of this? I mean, it didn't work in the USSR; why would it work in our (for the sake of this debate) revolution?
| Quote: | | The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets |
If the workers revolt and democratic soviet bodies are created, what is the point of the 'vanguard' staying intact? At this point they should just become a portion of the rest of the revolutionaries, no? I don't see the point of a vanguard but to start the wave of revolution and to set up democratic revolution. Past that, if they have no authority as you claim they wouldn't, they aren't necessary.
| Quote: | | There is no material basis for corruption in a workers state |
There is if it is possible to gain wealth, power, etc. How would you suggest we keep the vanguard from this folly that has snared certain of its members all revolutions in the past?
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag
Age : 97
Joined : 05 Apr 2008
Posts : 2641
Location : Iceland
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:03 am | |
| Good reply, NJNP. I await mark's response.
_________________
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization"
Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
accept green or die!!!
my name is evyindur H haarde |
|
| | |
Anarchist.Dagger
Experienced Party Member
Age : 20
Joined : 04 Apr 2008
Posts : 850
Location : Land of the free, but not me
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:48 am | |
| It's on me now to make sure you don't become a trot? haha, uh-oh, the pressures on.
_________________
Youth is revolutionary |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: Who does political work offline? Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:18 am | |
| | NoJustice.NoPeace wrote: | I'm comin, I'm comin...
| Quote: | | "These gentlemen work today, obeying the capitalists; they will work even better tomorrow, obeying the armed workers" |
Unfortunately this was not the case (or even close to it). |
can you go into detal?
| Quote: | The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets
How can you be sure of this? I mean, it didn't work in the USSR; why would it work in our (for the sake of this debate) revolution? |
It wasn't a matter of people being inherently greed, it was a matter of opportunism made possible by Stalin's political counterrevolution. Which occured BECAUSE of the menshevik tendency having such close ties and relations with SURROUNDING CAPITALIST nations.
| Quote: | The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets
If the workers revolt and democratic soviet bodies are created, what is the point of the 'vanguard' staying intact? At this point they should just become a portion of the rest of the revolutionaries, no? I don't see the point of a vanguard but to start the wave of revolution and to set up democratic revolution. Past that, if they have no authority as you claim they wouldn't, they aren't necessary. |
you are totally correct. I am sorry i gave the impression they'd be needed past that.
| Quote: | There is no material basis for corruption in a workers state
There is if it is possible to gain wealth, power, etc. How would you suggest we keep the vanguard from this folly that has snared certain of its members all revolutions in the past? |
there shouldn't be a vanguard past that. |
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