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 What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology

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calinis
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PostSubject: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:18 am

why do people think that communism is good when all communist countries have failed misrably? if it cannot work in russia, china, cuba, north korea, vietnam, former czechoslavakia, poland, etc, what makes you think it can work in america? i do not think much of an ideology that destroys inncentive, destroys individuality, and ultimately allows the oppression of its people in a state much WORSE than capitalism has ever been. what appeals to you about a society that denies equality (ironically that is what it is founded upon) and instead encourages corruption within the party members, and has a secret police force to terrorize and send all enemines of the people the gulags, with crimes that ridic. communism allows leds to totalitarianism. why do you want the government in charge of everything you do?
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Steel
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:25 pm

How would you define communism? I mean, the regimes in the USSR and Cambodia, for example, were worlds apart, and yet some people would define both of them as communist.

Quote :
why do people think that communism is good when all communist countries have failed misrably?

Although I am no Trotskyist I have to admit that the man partly right when he said “Socialism will exist internationally or it will not exist at all.” Personally I would go further and say that socialism can only be maintained as a global system.

But to get back to you’re question I have to point out two things.

The first is that these countries never claimed to be communist. They claimed that they were socialist. For most socialist prior to the Bolsheviks socialism and communism were ultimately the same. The Bolshevik defined the socialism as what I would call 100% State Monopoly Capitalism. This is the nature of the regime in these countries (with the exception of Cambodia which reverted to a pre-capitalist stage).

In keeping with that point then it must be said that they are therefore still capitalist. They maintained all of the trimmings of capitalism:
- Money
- Wage Labour
- Production of goods to sell rather than solely for use
- Professional Army and Bureaucracy
- Classes

I would also like to say that socialists who consider these regimes to be another form of capitalism do not attempt to pin their crimes on all supporters of capitalism (in whatever form). Sadly anti-communists try and pin these crimes on all socialists, even when they are aware that socialism is not a homogenous set of ideas. This kind of thing gets in the way of constructive discussion.

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i do not think much of an ideology that destroys inncentive,

Contrary to what you might think, Humans are capable of looking into the future and making a conscious decision about it. This will be the principal on which socialism is established; the working class (at an individual level) will make the decision that it is going to freely give its labour to society on the condition that it gets a free share of societies wealth. It cannot, therefore, work without the consent of the majority of the population and is probably one of the few systems in which active choice is required rather than passive indifference.

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destroys individuality

Wherever did you get that idea from? After all, socialism will give you a free education and a lot more free time to pursue your interests. If this does not allow you to develop as an individual I do not know what will. (Buying an expensive designer shirt owed by thousands or even millions of other people?)

Quote :
ultimately allows the oppression of its people in a state much WORSE than capitalism has ever been.

Not really. As far as I am aware the ‘socialist’ countries have rarely been much worse (and certainly not deserving of an all caps word) than capitalist societies. Pinochet for example, Banned all political activity in his country. The Nazis actively pursued the extermination of the Jews, something that is without parallel anywhere in the world (communist or otherwise) or in history. Then there are numerous example whereby communist parties have been liquidated (meaning their physical extermination, rather than the more rhetorical liquidation of social classes promoted by the Bolsheviks and their chums).

That’s not to say of course that the Western democracies, Britain, the US and that, aren’t worlds better. They are.

Quote :
what appeals to you about a society that denies equality (ironically that is what it is founded upon) and instead encourages corruption within the party members

The party elite in these countries constituted a class (or perhaps caste) themselves; therefore these countries were not classless and thus not communist. It is my belief that this corruption was caused by the lack of accountability. Under an actual socialist system, people would have the power to instantly recall elected officials. Why is it that people instantly assume that socialism cannot deliver equality rather than actually looking to see whether or not this ‘socialism’ has been distorted?

Quote :
and has a secret police force to terrorize and send all enemines of the people the gulags

I do not support this. It is however, little different to other examples in the capitalist world, the Gestapo, the Shah of Iran’s secret police (I forget what they are called). In Britain MI5 have, in the past, been involved in extensively monitoring the activities of just about anyone with left wing sympathies: students, trade unionists etc.

Furthermore, the GULAG is a unique Russian phenomenon. Not because other countries do not have work camps, but because GULAG is the Russian acronym for “The chief administration of Corrective Labor camps and Colonies” and I am unaware of other regimes that gave them this name (and did it in Russian as wel!)
At the end of the day, I see little difference between the GULAG and the plans your average conservative has for our prisons. Both are wrong.

Quote :
why do you want the government in charge of everything you do?

I would like some evidence that this was the case in any of the so called ‘communist states’ with the exception of Cambodia (because this was pretty much true). Or shall we just make it easy and say you were exaggerating for effect?

Nevertheless that fact remains that Marx himself was opposed to this ‘barracks communism’.
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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:02 pm

ok, you think so highly of a system that has FAILED everytime it has been tried? why is this? what is with your trust for the government if it do what YOU think is good? do you not know about corruption? do you not that less economic inevitably leads to less personal freedom? you have too much faith in human character that you fail to realize its obvious fallacies. you know, you sit here post from computer, a product of capitalism, you say it is all bad, but you have it better under capitalism than anyone (save for the elite) ever living under communism.
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Steel
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:34 pm

You did read my post right?

Quote :
ok, you think so highly of a system that has FAILED everytime it has been tried?

No. I do not consider them to be socialist:
I wrote:
In keeping with that point then it must be said that they are therefore still capitalist.

Quote :
do you not know about corruption?

Yes I do. I also answered this point and briefly described a safeguard against this (and certainly a better option than abandoning government altogether):

I wrote:
It is my belief that this corruption was caused by the lack of accountability. Under an actual socialist system, people would have the power to instantly recall elected officials.

Quote :
do you not that less economic inevitably leads to less personal freedom?

I have yet to see that adequately proven. Furthermore I do not consider the 'free market' to be more or less economically free than centrally planned capitalism. I favour abolishing both in favour of real economic freedom:
A society of voluntary labour and free access.

Quote :
you have too much faith in human character that you fail to realize its obvious fallacies.

No. I consider the capabilities of the human animal. Personally I think it would be wrong to say that I am an exceptional human being, therefore if i am capable of this kind of foresight many others must be also. Of course if you care to list the reasons that are humans are not capable of weighing up the evidence and coming to a reasoned conclusion be my guest.

Quote :
you know, you sit here post from computer, a product of capitalism, you say it is all bad

No I do not:

I wrote:
That’s not to say of course that the Western democracies, Britain, the US and that, aren’t worlds better. They are.

Unless you intend to demonstrate that an electron or a semiconductor behaves differently in a socialist system to how it does under a capitalist one, I would suggest that you do not use any examples like that in the future. Socialism will not get rid of computers, and there is no real reason to think that had it been implemented before the development of computers we would not have ended up with them at some point.

I simply maintain that at our present level of development socialism is capable of delivering more than capitalism.
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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:25 pm

comunist cuntry cant exist. comunist cuntry has never existed. socialist cuntry has never existe.d only capitalism. whie your criticising capitalism so much? wow. you are the best socialit i ever saw.
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Cyprian Uljanow
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:14 am

Stop mixing up Fascism with Communism.

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:02 am

cyrpian: stop spewing bulshet. ussr is not fascism. its state capitalism. fascism is another type of state capitalism so theyr similar.

i dont cling to a corupt ideology/ you do. i believe in a system that has never been tried.
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Cyprian Uljanow
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:04 am

Watermelon wrote:
cyrpian: stop spewing bulshet. ussr is not fascism. its state capitalism. fascism is another type of state capitalism so theyr similar.

You just stated that I spew bullshit and then said I'm right - man, pleas get a clue.

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:16 am

no i didnt i said your almost right. stalinism and fascism are not the same. they are two diferent tyupes of state cpaitalism.
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Cyprian Uljanow
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PostSubject: Re: What is the justification for clinging to a corrupt ideology   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:19 am

I wasn't talking about the Economic stages, but the political practices - then Fascism = USSR/China/Korea/Cuba.

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