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 when will people realize that capitalism is good

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calinis
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PostSubject: when will people realize that capitalism is good   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:16 am

under capitalism, everyone has oppertunity to succeed and make something of themselves.
under socialism, everyone is hindered, and must work as a collective unit.
you give too much power to the government, and you will see they abuse it. it is inevitable. we are dealing with human beings, not all good-natured individuals. i doubt that most people will think much of an ideology that is mostly stealing, because that is what it is.

you all seem to be fine, you have it better than most people in third-world countries. my family is lower-middle class, yet i still embrace capitalism.
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Cyprian Uljanow
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PostSubject: Re: when will people realize that capitalism is good   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:44 am

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=TrWEfAxnRp0

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: when will people realize that capitalism is good   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:11 am

in socialism the government has less power than in capitalism. in communism the government has no power at all. weve told you this so many times. your powers of understanding simple things are next to none.
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Steel
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PostSubject: Re: when will people realize that capitalism is good   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:28 am

calinis wrote:
under capitalism, everyone has oppertunity to succeed and make something of themselves.

Bullshit. Social mobility is crap.
In my country the lions share of places at the top universities go to people who have gone to private schools meanwhile people with comparable grades from state schools come in a poor second

Quote :
under socialism, everyone is hindered, and must work as a collective unit.
Yes because quite obviously everyone can build a house by themselves. Its called cooperation and it works.

Quote :
you give too much power to the government, and you will see they abuse it.

This is an appalling generalization. Find some quotes from Karl Marx that support a powerful government (and also reject what he said in the critique of the Gotha program as in my sig) and maybe we'll consider taking it seriously. Here I'll get you started:
Marx Internet Archive


Quote :
it is inevitable.
Thats going to take a lot of proving. Think your capable?

Quote :
we are dealing with human beings, not all good-natured individuals. i doubt that most people will think much of an ideology that is mostly stealing, because that is what it is.

Stealing from the rich to give to the poor definately.
Only we've changed all the laws (thanks to popular support) so that its not stealing, but expropriating theives.

As a friend of mine once said. "Paying workers less than the value of what they produce is stealing"

Quote :
you all seem to be fine, you have it better than most people in third-world countries. my family is lower-middle class, yet i still embrace capitalism.

Irrelevant. According to Marx socialism would be implemented in the advanced capitalist countries first.

Could you at least try to have some knowledge of what you oppose?
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: when will people realize that capitalism is good   Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:03 pm

Steel wrote:


Bullshit. Social mobility is crap.
In my country the lions share of places at the top universities go to people who have gone to private schools meanwhile people with comparable grades from state schools come in a poor second

In my neighbourhood we have 4 state run schools and 1 private.
I know a lot of peple from the private school and most of them have very good grades but none of them are rich most of them are qite poor acctuly.

anyway you'll probably reject this and call me a liar so ever thought of making the connection that the rich are maybe rich becuse they are already smarter???

Steel wrote:

Yes because quite obviously everyone can build a house by themselves. Its called cooperation and it works.

I think he means you can't do what you want to do you're still restricted to central planning.

Steel wrote:

This is an appalling generalization. Find some quotes from Karl Marx that support a powerful government (and also reject what he said in the critique of the Gotha program as in my sig) and maybe we'll consider taking it seriously. Here I'll get you started

so there is no goverment in communism???
but what will keep pepole from killing echothere??


Steel wrote:

Stealing from the rich to give to the poor definately.
Only we've changed all the laws (thanks to popular support) so that its not stealing, but expropriating theives.

As a friend of mine once said. "Paying workers less than the value of what they produce is stealing"

the owner of a firm decides to buy 1000 kg of fish he takes it to his firm and tells his workers to gut the fish.
ok now the firm owner paid money for the fish so the fish s his not the workers now he also pays the workers to gut the fish so why in the world do the workers own the fish??
They are already consuming maybe 30-50% of the owners profit with theyere pay so infact they do own the means of production but just money not the acctul fish.

Steel wrote:

Irrelevant. According to Marx socialism would be implemented in the advanced capitalist countries first

Could you at least try to have some knowledge of what you oppose?

wtf??
communism is obviusly for the lowere classes becuse thy are the only ones to profit all otheres will see a masssive decrese in qualaty of life.
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Steel
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PostSubject: Re: when will people realize that capitalism is good   Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:02 pm

Quote :
anyway you'll probably reject this and call me a liar

Why would I do that? I only demand such a lot of evidence from this calinis guy because: a) he doesn't seem to realise that what he is saying needs a lot of backing up (especially considering his extreme solutions) and b) im so tired of hearing that kind of revisionist crap from right wingers that I have stopped bothering to argue against it and instead hope that if I ask them for evidence when they don't find any they might consider that they were wrong.

Quote :
In my neighbourhood we have 4 state run schools and 1 private.
I know a lot of peple from the private school and most of them have very good grades but none of them are rich most of them are qite poor acctuly....

Of course this does not exclude the possibility of wealthy relatives, and rich is I suppose relative. However, if we take my own family as an example.

Both my parents either have or have the equivalent of an MSc. Doing the job they do (working for the NHS) they only earn slightly more than say, a teacher. I would have thought having an MSc marked them out as intelligent individuals. That doesn't make sense if rich people are inherently intelligent and poor inherently stupid.

Of couse, thats largely anecdotal, the sutton trust does all the real work.

Quote :
I think he means you can't do what you want to do you're still restricted to central planning.
Yeah he probably did, but its a non argument.
under capitalism your restricted by the market (and a great deal more so).

Quote :
so there is no goverment in communism???

Perhaps i should have said state Very Happy (in which case I should have asked for any indication that Marx thought the state and socialism compatible)
Either way the political form of govenment will largely be reduced to a local level.

Quote :
the owner of a firm decides to buy 1000 kg of fish he takes it to his firm and tells his workers to gut the fish.
ok now the firm owner paid money for the fish so the fish s his not the workers now he also pays the workers to gut the fish so why in the world do the workers own the fish??
They are already consuming maybe 30-50% of the owners profit with theyere pay so infact they do own the means of production but just money not the acctul fish.

If the gutted fish have more value than the un-gutted fish, then the work done by gutting them must have added value right?
If the workers are the only ones doing any work to them all the increased value must have been from gutting them right (rather than the firm owner trimming his 'tache)?
If the workers are the only ones doing any work to increase the value of the fish, the fact that they are only receiving about half of this in wages means that they have been paid less than the value of what they have added.
[/most poorly explained paragraph in the whole of marxist economics.]

Quote :
communism is obviusly for the lowere classes becuse thy are the only ones to profit all otheres will see a masssive decrese in qualaty of life.

Very Happy the lower classes produced by advanced capitalist society.


Last edited by Steel on Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Watermelon
ZEK in siberian gulag


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PostSubject: Re: when will people realize that capitalism is good   Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:00 pm

ye. rich pepul are smartor. comunism onlyi benefits low clases. the buguarsies expiriance a decrese of money.
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