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What kind of abortion do you support?
None
25%
 25% [ 4 ]
In case it poses a threat to mother's life
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
In case it poses a threat to mother's life, in case of rape
6%
 6% [ 1 ]
In case it poses a threat to mother's life, in case of rape, in case of fetal deformations
19%
 19% [ 3 ]
In case it poses a threat to mother's life, in case of rape, in case of fetal deformation, in case of family planing
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
By demand (all cases and simple decision)
50%
 50% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 16
 

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:47 am

Ryom wrote:
Killing me ? even if i was ¨killed¨ what difference would it make ? my life havent done much change in this world its a fact, if was ¨killed¨ i dont think the world would have looked much different except some where a poor girl would have been called ¨Mudere¨ and ¨killer¨ by people like you

Maybe not killing just you. But in the case of Russia for exaple 60% of pregnancies end up in abortion and that is one of the factors literally killing Russia.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:54 am

Zealot who would adopt that many children ? belive me growing up in a orphanage is the worst thing that can happen to anyone, it is mentally destroying, i was lucky i got adopted at the age of 3 so i dont remember anything from the orphanage
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:06 am

Ryom wrote:
Zealot who would adopt that many children ? belive me growing up in a orphanage is the worst thing that can happen to anyone, it is mentally destroying, i was lucky i got adopted at the age of 3 so i dont remember anything from the orphanage

There are lots of sterile couples that would like to have a child, not only in Russia but world-wide.

That's why I think that, at least withing the framework of a communist government, there should be a database of all the people who want to have a child and cannot, others would be raised by the state.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:12 am

Russia is not a communist government, and a child dont need a state (whether its communist or not) to be raised it only needs to things a mom and a dad no more no less
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:22 am

Ryom wrote:
Russia is not a communist government, and a child dont need a state (whether its communist or not) to be raised it only needs to things a mom and a dad no more no less

I never said Russia was communist. I merely said that within communism there are even less excuses to abort just as there is more control and that it would be easier to assign unwanted children to people that did want them.

Now, a child needs comprehension, love, nourishment. Many children can succesfully develop in the absense of their (biological) parents it's matter of applying the proper pedagogics.

The point of this debate is: If there are enough contraceptive measures why should a woman get unwillingly pregnant? By mere irresponsability. I will never consequent an abortion that was required or asked as product of a sexual slip. If you want to have sex: Attain to the consequences, specially if you won't take any contraceptive measure.

I won't consequent women that undergo 10 abortions just to get rid of the product of their irresponsible sexual acts. And I won't support women that think killing their unborn child is the solution to their irresponsability.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:32 am

i think that every women should get a second chance, but 10 chances there i agree with you Zealot even at the second abortion some social help thing so go in action
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:43 am

Ryom wrote:
i think that every women should get a second chance, but 10 chances there i agree with you Zealot even at the second abortion some social help thing so go in action

Look my friend, the issue is that such disregard for life and such a fomentation of iresponsability can't be allowed. There are simply too many contraceptive measures.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:18 am

its not disregard for life if the fetus is removed before its actually living, accidents do happen
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:12 am

How is forcing a forcing someone to have a baby and making abortionists/ abortion seekers second class citizens not a greater violation of human rights than preventing the birth of something that isn't alive?
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:28 am

Ryom wrote:
its not disregard for life if the fetus is removed before its actually living, accidents do happen

The thing is that it's actually living.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:33 am

oligarch wrote:
How is forcing a forcing someone to have a baby and making abortionists/ abortion seekers second class citizens not a greater violation of human rights than preventing the birth of something that isn't alive?

I have explained my position: It is a living human being in development.
Parting from that base, someone who seeks for abortion merely as a way to "correct" an act of irresponsability which could have been easily prevented and that can be solved by giving the product in adoption does deserve to be either punished or looked down at and someone who practices a murder (according to the bases I have explained before) should be treated like that, as a murderer.

There's no excuse for abortion by demand as there are too many contraceptive measures and adoption is viable. Abortion should only be used as an extreme measure to safeguard mother's life, in case it was not the bearer's fault or in case impossible to correct fetal deformations are found.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:34 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Ryom wrote:
its not disregard for life if the fetus is removed before its actually living, accidents do happen

The thing is that it's actually living.

A blade of grass is a living thing but that doesn't mean someone should be put into a gulag for plucking one out of the ground.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:43 am

oligarch wrote:

A blade of grass is a living thing but that doesn't mean someone should be put into a gulag for plucking one out of the ground.

Yet that blade of grass is not product of human sexual intercourse nor will it develop into a human.

In other words: A blade of grass is not a human in development, a human fetus is.


Last edited by on Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:28 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
oligarch wrote:

A blade of grass is a living thing but that doesn't mean someone should be put into a gulag for plucking one out of the ground.

Yet that blade of grass is not product of human sexual intercourse nor will it develop into a human.

Well I can see your argument being valid in a completely communist society in which step parents can be assured because of the productivity factor but we're a long way from that and I still think "teaching people lessons" like that infringes on personal freedoms.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:59 pm

oligarch wrote:
Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
oligarch wrote:

A blade of grass is a living thing but that doesn't mean someone should be put into a gulag for plucking one out of the ground.

Yet that blade of grass is not product of human sexual intercourse nor will it develop into a human.

Well I can see your argument being valid in a completely communist society in which step parents can be assured because of the productivity factor but we're a long way from that and I still think "teaching people lessons" like that infringes on personal freedoms.
freedom to do anything you want to as long as it dose not put others at risk- personal freedom Cool
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:35 am

oligarch wrote:


Well I can see your argument being valid in a completely communist society in which step parents can be assured because of the productivity factor but we're a long way from that and I still think "teaching people lessons" like that infringes on personal freedoms.

My arguement that every kid could have assured parents, yes, it's validated by the productivity and administrative efficience of a communist society, however, my arguement that an unborn human is a living human being in devlopment is fundamented by many other factors unlinked to economy but to simple common sense.

People cannot decide wether a human lives or not out of their mere irresponsability. I insist, there are just enough contraceptive measures. most unwanted babies are products of irresponsability, of lack of precaution. The solution is not killing them, it's giving them in adoption. And even so that burden can be alleviated by contraception.

I don't think prohibiting abortion infringes personal freedoms: people have the personal freedom to have sex and have the obligation to attain to the consequences of the way they choose to have sex:

If a man is cropohilic he should know that eating feces can cause him infections and even severe pathologies.
If a person is sadomasoquist that person should know that he/she can get harmed in the sexual act.
If a person is a necrophilic, aside from the health problems he exposes himself to, he should understand that, according to some people's beliefs he's disrespecting the memory of the deseased person and should attain to the consequences of being caught.
If a man is a rapist he should attain to the consequences of forcing a woman into having sex.

And if a person wants to have sex without the use of condoms or any other contraceptive measure, they should understand that the probabilities of conceiving a living human being are latent and should assume the responsibility of carrying that act with these consequences. I can't tolerate a society that tolerates people who have sex without contraception get pregnant and think the solution is merely getting rid of the product of their irresponsible act.

Abortion should be available just in case of emergency, not to correct the irresposibility of a sexually active couple.

Is it so hard to recurr to contraceptives? Is it so hard to be responsible? is it so hard to attain to the consequences of our acts? Do we have to consequent, to foment and tolerate irresponsability?

Perfection doesn't exist, we all commit mistakes, but we have to confront the consequences of them, specially if we had all the chances to avoid commiting them. Taking a life for such caprices is for me reprobable completely.

Treating humans like they were nothing but sacks of CHONPS is not tolerable for me.

I'll tell you a personal story, just like Ryom shared his.

When my mother got married with my father they didn't have much money, they had enough to live well, but not much. When she got pregnant she quit her job, they wouldn't let her work pregnant. My father didn't earn much. They even had to sell trash to survive, they were lucky because my grandfather had let them live in his home. Realizing how hard things were she considered abortion. However, she retracted, thinking she couldn't simply consent the death of her son. She delivered me and things were pretty hard. As soon as she could she started working again. Then she got pregnant of my brother. My uncle had started suceeding in his career as architect and gave work to my mother, but with a low pay. As soon as she returned working my father quit working and all the home expenses went over my mother's shoulders. My father had other two children and it was my mother who also had to feed them. Did she abort my brother? NO. She survived with what she could and had my brother. With time luck smiled upon her again, she got a salary increase and was even able to buy some auctions of my uncle's company.

That is respect for life, that is determination. Even within the damned hostile capitalist environment.
And I just knew of this story not long ago and my mother, while she sauys she wouldn't abort she deffends what she considers the right of other women to abort.


I can't have respect for a weakling that thinks the only solution to an unwanted pregnancy is abortion. She could have avoided that mistake easily. And I'm focusing on a socialist/communist framework, where the economy/parenthood factors are not against a baby, so in such a framework I can even be less tolerant to such a position, which even in a capitalist framework, while understandable, is not more tolerable.

Besides I'm almost sure most abortions are practiced in irresponsible and disrespectful to life women who think abortion is a good substitute to contraceptives. Their motto: "I can have as much unprotected sex as I want, I just have to get rid of the product and that's it".

I won't try to convince you, but, I would really suggest you not to support such irresponsible and indifferent postures.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:15 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
oligarch wrote:


Well I can see your argument being valid in a completely communist society in which step parents can be assured because of the productivity factor but we're a long way from that and I still think "teaching people lessons" like that infringes on personal freedoms.

My arguement that every kid could have assured parents, yes, it's validated by the productivity and administrative efficience of a communist society, however, my arguement that an unborn human is a living human being in devlopment is fundamented by many other factors unlinked to economy but to simple common sense.

People cannot decide wether a human lives or not out of their mere irresponsability. I insist, there are just enough contraceptive measures. most unwanted babies are products of irresponsability, of lack of precaution. The solution is not killing them, it's giving them in adoption. And even so that burden can be alleviated by contraception.

I don't think prohibiting abortion infringes personal freedoms: people have the personal freedom to have sex and have the obligation to attain to the consequences of the way they choose to have sex:

If a man is cropohilic he should know that eating feces can cause him infections and even severe pathologies.
If a person is sadomasoquist that person should know that he/she can get harmed in the sexual act.
If a person is a necrophilic, aside from the health problems he exposes himself to, he should understand that, according to some people's beliefs he's disrespecting the memory of the deseased person and should attain to the consequences of being caught.
If a man is a rapist he should attain to the consequences of forcing a woman into having sex.

And if a person wants to have sex without the use of condoms or any other contraceptive measure, they should understand that the probabilities of conceiving a living human being are latent and should assume the responsibility of carrying that act with these consequences. I can't tolerate a society that tolerates people who have sex without contraception get pregnant and think the solution is merely getting rid of the product of their irresponsible act.

Abortion should be available just in case of emergency, not to correct the irresposibility of a sexually active couple.

Is it so hard to recurr to contraceptives? Is it so hard to be responsible? is it so hard to attain to the consequences of our acts? Do we have to consequent, to foment and tolerate irresponsability?

Perfection doesn't exist, we all commit mistakes, but we have to confront the consequences of them, specially if we had all the chances to avoid commiting them. Taking a life for such caprices is for me reprobable completely.

Treating humans like they were nothing but sacks of CHONPS is not tolerable for me.

I'll tell you a personal story, just like Ryom shared his.

When my mother got married with my father they didn't have much money, they had enough to live well, but not much. When she got pregnant she quit her job, they wouldn't let her work pregnant. My father didn't earn much. They even had to sell trash to survive, they were lucky because my grandfather had let them live in his home. Realizing how hard things were she considered abortion. However, she retracted, thinking she couldn't simply consent the death of her son. She delivered me and things were pretty hard. As soon as she could she started working again. Then she got pregnant of my brother. My uncle had started suceeding in his career as architect and gave work to my mother, but with a low pay. As soon as she returned working my father quit working and all the home expenses went over my mother's shoulders. My father had other two children and it was my mother who also had to feed them. Did she abort my brother? NO. She survived with what she could and had my brother. With time luck smiled upon her again, she got a salary increase and was even able to buy some auctions of my uncle's company.

That is respect for life, that is determination. Even within the damned hostile capitalist environment.
And I just knew of this story not long ago and my mother, while she sauys she wouldn't abort she deffends what she considers the right of other women to abort.


I can't have respect for a weakling that thinks the only solution to an unwanted pregnancy is abortion. She could have avoided that mistake easily. And I'm focusing on a socialist/communist framework, where the economy/parenthood factors are not against a baby, so in such a framework I can even be less tolerant to such a position, which even in a capitalist framework, while understandable, is not more tolerable.

Besides I'm almost sure most abortions are practiced in irresponsible and disrespectful to life women who think abortion is a good substitute to contraceptives. Their motto: "I can have as much unprotected sex as I want, I just have to get rid of the product and that's it".

I won't try to convince you, but, I would really suggest you not to support such irresponsible and indifferent postures.

so your saying that awoman should not controle her own life?
abortion is usally not use as a sex barrier thingy( help here plz)
ther is condom and then your own abortion pill wich will make a timy near invisebel "humanbeing" die.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:07 am

mattabesta wrote:

so your saying that awoman should not controle her own life?

No, I'm saying a woman should be responsible of her actions and she shouldn't be able to murder her child just because she skipped the great ammount of contraceptive measures available.

mattabesta wrote:

abortion is usally not use as a sex barrier thingy( help here plz)
You mean contraceptive right? No, abortion has nothing to do with contraception, if there's no conception abrotion is impossible.

mattabesta wrote:

ther is condom and then your own abortion pill wich will make a timy near invisebel "humanbeing" die.
*invisible

There are contraceptive pills for your information. Evidently you don't read what others write.

And please don't overquote: Don't quote what you're not going to use.
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RedNation
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:10 am

This is a very touchy subject, and still is being debated in many nations around the world, my opinion is that, it should be a case by case decision, and, only if there are going to be complications, if its because, they jsut dont want a baby than no
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:39 am

RedNation wrote:
This is a very touchy subject, and still is being debated in many nations around the world, my opinion is that, it should be a case by case decision, and, only if there are going to be complications, if its because, they jsut dont want a baby than no


Well I keep in my position. With so much contraception available, I can't justify abortion as product of omision of contraceptives.
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RedNation
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:42 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Well I keep in my position. With so much contraception available, I can't justify abortion as product of omision of contraceptives.


I totaly agree with you
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