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 Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?

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VRaptorX
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PostSubject: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:07 am

really...this is a very stupid thing to waste your time on

http://www2.kerrang.com/2008/07/emo_and_goth_to_be_made_illega.html
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RedSoviet
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:25 am

haha, ok it is stupid
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:51 am

That is pretty stupid but at least its better than in Mexico.
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:03 pm

That's pretty retarded.

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:43 pm

It's silly but both democratic (most Russians I know complain at emo and goths) and good for Russian sovereignty since both "subcultures" are product of G-7s imperialism..
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:11 am

It may originate from the west but its just an inconsequential byproduct.
I think its rather undemocratic because it infringes on their freedom of expression.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:46 am

oligarch wrote:
It may originate from the west but its just an inconsequential byproduct.
I think its rather undemocratic because it infringes on their freedom of expression.

It's democratic as long as most want or back it up. In fact supressing someone's point of view can be democratic as long as most want it.

Most Russians I know hate emos and goths so I think it pretty much reflects Russian people's point of view. Else, I insist, those subculture's are product of G-7 imperialism, they're a reflect of it, so after all it's to some extent a way to protect Russia..
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Liche
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:51 am

democracy is bad. its just what the majority think. if every one wants to kill themselves, than it would be right to kill yourself. if every one wants to nuke every country, but their own, then they would do it. if the system gets corrupt every one is screwed. a tyranny would be good if the tyrant was the smartest, most kind person ever.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:20 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:


It's democratic as long as most want or back it up. In fact supressing someone's point of view can be democratic as long as most want it.

Democracy depends on civil liberties. If anyone's point of view is suppressed, regardless of whether or not it is supported by the majority then it ceases to be democracy. Tyranny by the majority is still tyranny.

Quote :

Else, I insist, those subculture's are product of G-7 imperialism, they're a reflect of it, so after all it's to some extent a way to protect Russia..

Its actually a form of counter-culture, its a byproduct of western culture and has no political implications. Russia isn't protecting itself, this is just fascism and xenophobia.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:35 am

oligarch wrote:


Democracy depends on civil liberties. If anyone's point of view is suppressed, regardless of whether or not it is supported by the majority then it ceases to be democracy. Tyranny by the majority is still tyranny.

I disagree with that posture as per ethymology. In my view, if it's the people's will, no matter how stupid or repressive, it's democracy.

oligarch wrote:


Its actually a form of counter-culture,


Understanding this as "against culture" right? It's part of Suppressors' arguements.

oligarch wrote:
its a byproduct of western culture and has no political implications.

It may have no political implications, yet, it is an implication of western culture (and its degeneration in capitalism) entering Russia, a product of imperialism.

oligarch wrote:

Russia isn't protecting itself,

If these are "counter-cultures" and so go against Russian culture its suppresion can be seen as a defense of culture. Else, if these are products of western culture and its expansion, it can be seen as a defense from those influences.

oligarch wrote:
this is just fascism

Similar to but not fascism per se.

oligarch wrote:
and xenophobia.
In no way is it xenophobia since it does not target foreigners.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:06 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:


In my view, if it's the people's will, no matter how stupid or repressive, it's democracy.

I disagree, democracy is only democracy if the marketplace of ideas is open and that requires freedom of expression of all groups.

oligarch wrote:


Its actually a form of counter-culture,


Understanding this as "against culture" right? It's part of Suppressors' arguements.[/quote]

Meaning that it is against western culture, not a part of it.



Quote :

If these are "counter-cultures" and so go against Russian culture its suppresion can be seen as a defense of culture. Else, if these are products of western culture and its expansion, it can be seen as a defense from those influences.

Such counter-culture movements go against all culture, both western and Russian. In any case, cultural exchange isn't a bad thing.


Quote :

Similar to but not fascism per se.


Authoritarian to say the very least.

Quote :

In no way is it xenophobia since it does not target foreigners.

It does not target foreigners themselves but you yourself say that your opposition stems in part from association of emo with the west. It would seem Russia is trying to isolate itself by resisting what it perceives as western cultural influences.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:37 pm

oligarch wrote:


I disagree, democracy is only democracy if the marketplace of ideas is open and that requires freedom of expression of all groups.

The "marketplace" is open, that's why there are different ideas and as result of that a broadly disliked idea is being suppressed in accordance to the majourity's will.




oligarch wrote:


Meaning that it is against western culture, not a part of it.


oligarch wrote:
Such counter-culture movements go against all culture, both western and Russian. In any case, cultural exchange isn't a bad thing.

Post cold war Anti-cultural influences in Russia in my view are bad.



oligarch wrote:

Authoritarian to say the very least.

Which is neither necesarily bad nor anti-democratic.


oligarch wrote:

It does not target foreigners themselves but you yourself say that your opposition stems in part from association of emo with the west.
Not necesarily with west but with the expansionism of western consumerist culture.

oligarch wrote:
It would seem Russia is trying to isolate itself by resisting what it perceives as western cultural influences.

Which can be called "Cultural Isolationism" and is in no way xenophobia. In fact, I advocate for a lesser form of this as a trait of internationalist communism, that is, the existance of different nations and the preservation of each's culture.

Since emo and goth "subcultures" are completely a product of post-cold imperialism, and so part of it (in no way they counter capitalist economy but in the opposite, stem from it and to some extent support it) its suppression is the suppresion in part of the whole consumerist culture product of capitalism and its expansion of imperialism.

I'm not against emo and goths per se but against their origin and since Russia was clean of that for very long I don't see the need of such "subcultures" spreading throughout Russia, specially given their western, capitalist and imperialist origin. Anyway from this perspective they could be seen more as a "symptom" than the "disease".
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:22 am

Anything that suppresses the ideas of others is anti-democratic. Cultural isolationism is traditionalist and xenophobic. While emos are not anti-consumerist and are just a pathetic annoyance when compared to say the hippie movement which was actually responsible for some social progress, abolishing the sub-culture is still a very reactionary move on the part of Russia. This and other traditionalist measures such the "family oriented" counterpart to Valentine's Day etc. only serve to harm Russia's image abroad.
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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:17 am

I just say if people like the music and clothes, let them fucking wear and listen. What does it hurt? Were old ladies getting scared by the peircings, boys with maup, and black clothes?

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:27 pm

oligarch wrote:
Anything that suppresses the ideas of others is anti-democratic.

I insist, if the motion is approved or supported by a majourity it can't be anti-democratic. Even Fascism can be democratic if it is consciously accepted by the general population and they're satisfied with it, ergo, as a product of democracy itself.

Else, in this particular case, it's just a suppressed minority.

oligarch wrote:

Cultural isolationism is traditionalist and xenophobic.

To some extent I'm culturally traditionalist so I second that. And one thing is to resist external influence and other to attack it. For me it's good to defend one's culture from external influence, it doesn't mean hating or attacking all foreign, just not adopting it or resisting to its adoption. It's very different from attacking.

oligarch wrote:

While emos are not anti-consumerist and are just a pathetic annoyance when compared to say the hippie movement which was actually responsible for some social progress, abolishing the sub-culture is still a very reactionary move on the part of Russia.

Since reactionarism stands for "reaction against changes" and this change is the introduction of these subcultures due to G-7 imperialism and Russia's change towards open market capitalism, I say this is a good kind of reactionarism.

oligarch wrote:

This and other traditionalist measures such the "family oriented" counterpart to Valentine's Day etc. only serve to harm Russia's image abroad.

Well... many people abroad think Russians are baby eating Barbarians, and that's thanks to some media. I think that if Russia was to be concerned about its image abroad it should basically send some FSB personel to hunt down foreign press (or propagandists).

As I say to Russians "Why would you care about what Europeans or Americans think about you? They've always thought you're alcoholized cannibals after all."

"Emos and goths in my Russia? It's more likely than you think, free PC check now" Time for some Karperskiy I think..

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
I just say if people like the music and clothes, let them fucking wear and listen. What does it hurt? Were old ladies getting scared by the peircings, boys with maup, and black clothes?

I'd generally agree with this posture, but Russia was for long free from this and this is a reflex of a degradation Russia had not been experiencing for long. In my view the introduction of this "subcultures" harms Russia. And let me tell you I have some Russian emo friends and some Russophil, socialist, emo friends.

Now, speaking about subcultures... maybe you all know what happened in Mexico right? Well, that's one of the problems with subcultures. Now, wars based on culture are not between nations but between groups in a given nation. There are subcultures based entirely on intolerance to other groups, in fact, many emos are like that here specially after they were prosecuted by "punks", goths, rock music fans, pop music fans and reggaeton lovers. Many goths are the same way and it applies to other subcultures.

I have a punk anarchist friend and she's one of the most intelligent persons that I know, she made me change my view towards punks but hey how many of the so called punks are that way? Barely 10% I think and she's European, that number absolutely decreases when speaking about countries like Mexico where "punks" are a bunch of simply mess and violence loving retards.

My point is, there's a tendency of these subculture's majourities to simply be a cumulous of intolerance to everything different to theirs, hatred, depression and violence and more and more. Maybe in western europe and USA they've got a different focus (and I'd still argue majourities, maybe lesser but still majourities, are like that) but at least in Mexico and Russia they're becoming more violent by the day, simply by their conviction that they're "different and misunderstood". And after putting to practice that conviction is when other parties, like the State intervene.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:37 pm

If people were being beaten to death over their subculture like in Mexico state intervention would be justified but otherwise subcultures are inconsequential.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:28 pm

oligarch wrote:
If people were being beaten to death over their subculture like in Mexico state intervention would be justified but otherwise subcultures are inconsequential.

Well, prevention is always better than lamentation. And as a saying goes here "When you see the beard of your neighbour being cut prepare to cut yours".
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:27 am

LOL.

I can barely beileve this.
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RedSoviet
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:59 pm

oh come on its 99,99% just some stiupid journalists storys
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:06 am

So you say conform? Or else? Why does a crooked cross and the American flag in the sixties, and a dark, dark age of time all come to mind? Among other things.

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Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
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VRaptorX
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:24 am

you guys scare me some times you know that. Seriously, as if the member here calling all parents facists wasn't scary enough...there are actually people trying to say banning a whole "counter-culture" is perfectly reasonable? Wow...so should we ban jews next? What about blacks? Or why not women? I swear, some of you guys are so stupid. there are smart people here with decent arguements about why they dislike capitolism and than there are these immature kids who are boarderline brainwashed.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:29 pm

I don't know if you were targeting me, but:


VRaptorX wrote:
you guys scare me some times you know that. Seriously, as if the member here calling all parents facists wasn't scary enough...

Chances are that guy's already banned since such argumentation qualifies as trolling.

VRaptorX wrote:

there are actually people trying to say banning a whole "counter-culture" is perfectly reasonable? Wow...so should we ban jews next? What about blacks? Or why not women?


Some here argue that all religions should be banned, there goes Judaism. Some of us argue that religions should e tolerated but their institution completely abolished, that is church, priests, etc. that would definitely push a reform into religions. But it's ok that you have mentioned Judaism as an example, after all, Judaism qualifies as a culture or a cultural trait at least.

However, mentioning black people or women becomes totally out of context. You know why? Because being black or a woman are not cultural traits. One is a racial trait and teh other is sexual. Not only do you not choose to be one, you're immediately assuming both a racist and chauvinist (machist I'd say) point of view while we're talking about cultures and counter cultures.

Intolerance or rejection is not general. If you dislike goths that doesn't mean that in the long run you'll dislike black people too, or white people in the case of blacks. If you dislike emos that doesn't make you prone to be a male supremacist or a feminist.

My point, in very simple words is: Do not mix "cultural intolerance" with racism or sexism. Ok?


VRaptorX wrote:

I swear, some of you guys are so stupid. there are smart people here with decent arguements about why they dislike capitolism and than there are these immature kids who are boarderline brainwashed.

Once again, I don't know if you're targeting me, but I'll reply anyway.

I have my arguements on why I dislike these "counter-'cultures'", in my view they're broadly a product of western culture's expsition to free-market capitalism. The broad majourity of those claiming to belong to one of these "counter-'cultures'" are a cumulous of intolerance to everything different to them, a cumulous of hatred, self-marginalized people sank in the consumption of goods for a given taste. They got no ideology, their music is nothing but derivate of previously existing styles, some, like the emo, want to monopolize traits like sensibility and romanticism like they were the only ones able to experience that. Let me work this out with an example, a first hand example:

I for example, am a very sensible and romantic person, sometimes very melancholic, traits that to many would seem characteristic of emo. I used to believe that love existed just once in lifetime (and I'm still not sure it's no that way), another trait emos consider "theirs", and the first time my girlfriend broke-up with me, I seriously considered suicide, at least for a week, another trait many would consider "emo" (I lost any suicidal thought after that anyway). That of course speaking of personal characteristics attached to emos. Now, some other set of traits emos consider "theirs": being "straight edge" that meaning they are healthy individuals that practise sports, eat well, don't smoke, don't consume drugs and do not consume alcohol. These traits are not only theirs.

Many "normal" persons count with both the previously said emotional traits and the "healthy mentality" they count with, so, what ends up differencing emos from the kind of normal people I talked about?

Simple: Clothes, attitude (in many cases 'assertive', meaning that they're passively preperaed for aggresion from others different than theirs), accesories, the music they listen, and of course the way their tagged.

Many emos, some of them my friends, argue that in order to effectively be emo you need to be wealthy. This said mainly by Russian emos. Taking that into account we end up with this result:

An emo is nothing but a uberdepressed assertive burgeoise kid that listens a very particular kind of music and wears a very distinctive look that will search for others of his kind so that they can marginilize themselves from others and not be alone.

The equation, with some variations, repeats with other kinds of "counter-'culture'".

Now you'll ask me, what's wrong with that? They're nothing but a product of the immersion of western culture into this nefarious economical system. Being this system free-market capitalism. Being a product of this, they can easily permeate other capitalisms and spread.

And, as I've experienced here in Mexico and opther places, the attitudes these "counter-cultures" follow, I insist, in broadest majourities is of inherent intolerance for anything different to theirs. After all they're counter cultures, right?

Speaking particularily in the case of Russia, they were totally free from this for years. While this thrived in the west, in the case of some of these "cultures" for decades, Russia was free from this. So, in the eyes of a communist like me, who aside loves Russia and so Russian culture, the introduction of these cultures is nothing but a refllect of the introduction of free-market capitalism and the influence G-7 powers have excerted over Russia. Needless to say, in my eyes and in the eyes of many, that is negative, even unacceptable.

Many Russians, while not socialist, do feel in a similar way just taking away the free-market capitalism reaction. So, this reaction towards these "cultures", which are braodly disliked in Russia is understandable, and to a lesser extent, acceptable. If I think Russia shoudl ban Mercedez Benz, Ford, Toyota, etc. I think other products of imperialism shoudl be banned.

In my view emos and goths are merely other victims of how free-market capitalism has evolved in the cultural spheres in which they're. This is tainting my Russia, and I'm glad my Russia reacts negatively. I'm not glad for those kids' suppression, I have friends that will be directly affected by that, I'm just glad Russia is reacting negatively to at least some imperialist influences. I wish this extended to more impertant spheres like the economical and political..
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fritondyo
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:35 pm

i didnet say parents are fascists. i say parents are evil and should not exist. BIG DIFERNECE
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PostSubject: Re: Stupid Russia banning goth music and clothes?   Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:40 pm

fritondyo wrote:
i didnet say parents are fascists. i say parents are evil and should not exist. BIG DIFERNECE

What an obvious trolling. Grow up baby.
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