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 Life in the Soviet Union

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oligarch
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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeTue Oct 07, 2008 11:35 pm

So...to fight back against my reactionary class (econ OMFG) and defend the fallen Soviet Union from even more slander than it already has gotten, I request insight replies on how exactly the Soviet Union worked.

How did the people feel in the Soviet state? Nice? Unselfish? Kind and benevolent?

What did the people have and not have? Were their needs covered at least? How did the army work exactly and were they as "bad" as the West says (as in rape, execution, torture, blah blah). And how did the USSR government work and why was it corrupt?

Thank you for your time and I hope for some intelligent replies soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeWed Oct 08, 2008 4:33 am

Life in the USSR sucks, from what I hear. Unless your in the Beatles.

It was a hard life. Daily Schedule: Work Work Work, oppression, work, sleep, nuclear power plant failure, work even harder, so on and so on.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeWed Oct 08, 2008 4:40 am

they early days of the soviet union are worth defending
in the first 5 years it was the highest economic growth in the 20th centuary for any nation to have experienced
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeWed Oct 08, 2008 5:40 am

but I'm saying over all.

around it's tenth year, it started going to shit, every thing up to that is reasonable.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeWed Oct 08, 2008 5:49 am

well shit, ya man is was horrible once lenin died.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeWed Oct 08, 2008 6:09 am

There is no one answer to that. When the Soviet Union first began the country was very poor but it was very democratic. The only ones really repressed were monarchists and terrorists and reason the country was poor because the economy had been destroyed by the First World War and the Civil War but Lenin's policies electrified the Soviet Union and exponentially increased the national industrial capacity, additionally the Bolshevik always had the support of the toiling masses and much of the power was vested in the democratically elected soviets. When Stalin seized power, he degenerated Soviet Power over time until the soviets were nothing more than bureaucracies and he abandoned the NEP which allowed for small scale capitalism until the economy could support full scale socialism and instead adopted a policy of forced collectivization which goes against the basic tenets of Marxism and caused widespread famine.Once he had done away with the last morsel of democracy in the Soviet Union, Stalin initiated the Great Purges in order to the country of his political enemies; the primary target of the purges were communists. During World War Two the people's hatred was directed towards the invading Nazis and Stalin focused his attention expanding the USSR's industrial capacity so it could outstrip that of Germany, this and the fact that Stalins stranglehold on the country had been loosened made people feel vary patriotic. Once World War Two was over, Stalin reinstated totalitarianism and established pseudo-socialist systems identical to those of his across Eastern Europe. When Khrushchev came to power, conditions improved during the "Golden Sputnik Years" as the USSR experienced a post-war economic boom and the Soviet Union was "thawed" from Stalinism. Though Khrushchev did away with totalitarianism, he did not revive the workers' state and instead chose to preserve the corrupt bureaucracy that Stalin had established. When Brezhnev came to power, economic and social conditions deteriorated somewhat as the Stalinist began to collapse into itself again and new authoritarian measures were introduced. During Gorbachev's rule, the USSR was rapidly collapsing as a result of the decaying Stalinist system and he attempted to preserve the Union by adopting capitalism but rather than helping the problem it simply accelerated the process and worsened to efects of the collapse.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeWed Oct 08, 2008 10:09 am

First of all, this is a question that can better be answered by people who experienced it and those with close contact to them.

RS can be a good source since his parents lived there, probably beatnikzach too, I have spent a lot talking with people from the USSR, I've talked with my gf's mother who is a historian specialized in USSR and Russia's history.

Life in USSR has to be understood in the different contexts that developed during different periods of its existance.

Life in USSR is described by most of the former soviets I've had contact with as a life with material shortages but with great social wealth. The feeling of opression is greatly overestimated and actually most former-Soviets I have had contact with don't even mention it. For example, it's broadly stated that religion was greatly repressed within USSR specially during Stalin's regime, however, I've known from people that lived under Stalinist regime that they practiced their religion without fear and that they even participated in the re-contruction of churches after WWII.

USSR was based during most of its existance on a contradictory economic system:socialist state capitalism. In few words this system needed money to work and spent it in non-profiting enterprises, in other words, money was not invested but spent only. Most of USSR's capital was used in things that wouldn't generate any profit namely free education, free healthcare, social infrastructure and housing as well as the army.

This contradictory capitalism eventually lead to inmense shortages in consumer goods shortages that aggravated during wars, post-war scenaries and the peaks of arms races.

USSR enjoyed a limited prosperity time in which shortages greatly diminished. This period is a period in which USSR diminished greatly its expenses in arms industry and army and diverted more into consumer goods industry. This period lasted roughly the since the start of the 1960's until 1968 when Brezhnev took power and intensified military expenses lasting around 8 years.

Those shortages in consumer goods, reflection of an ecnomic crisis, eventually lead to a decay in the quality of life within the Soviet Union and eventually to its fall.

So, how was life in USSR? The answer: it depends during which period.

1922-1927 Are the "pre-Stalin" years. Of course USSR had inherited a terrible post-war situation in had to recover from something that eventually happened during these years. Dissidents fled, workers were still adapting to the changes but economic growth was rapid. The pace of change must have been somewhat turbulent making difficult to assess the life conditions of that period.

1927-1939 Pre-WWII Stalinist period. Stalin initiated his war against any possible opposition and against the peasantry rapidly eliminating the NEP. This war against the peasantry and several droughts that took place within those 12 years resulted in great famines and murders. The great purges caused great political tensions and greatly hindered the army. Yet industrialization didn't stop its great growth. To asses the conditions during this period I think you have to ask from which person's perspective. Not all workers were victims of famine meaning not all faced hardships while peasants were target of the forced collectivization meaning that from a peasant's perspective those must have been terrible times. During this time there were also massive national relocation campaings in which people were moved from their traditional regions of residence to far away regions. During the Stalinist era many scientific discoveries were disregarded in favour of bizarre but more appealing projects which nonetheless were non workable like Lysenko's agronomic and genetic projects which led to flawed experiments in creation of resistant crops.

1939-1941 USSR's preparation for war and engagement in moderate scale conficts that didn't have a great impact to the whole soviet population.

1941-1945 USSR goes through a war that takes the lives of nearly 30 million soviet citizens. In besieged cities famine, despair, canibalism, disease and death were common scenaries.

1945-1953 Post war period, start of the cold war. Most of the man-power was working to rebuild the nation and increase the military industry. During this period the war still had great effects on the people. Cases in which defective grenades, ammunition and bombs as well as mines took the lives of people were common. In general the country war recovering from the bloodiest war it had seen. In 1952 Stalin initiated a 2nd wave of purges which was to last until his death.

1953-1968 Post-stalin Era. After the death of Stalin a process of destalinization took place not only eliminating the great cult of personality around Stalin but also eliminating lots of his policies like capital punishment for abortion which had been stablished since the start of Stalin's rule. During this period the Soviet Union experienced an increase in personal freedoms and an increase in investments for the consumer sector of the population. During this time control over political dissent was somewhat eased and expenditures in military had decreased for resources to be diverted into the consumer goods' industry. The space and nuclear races ensued the latter allowing for a loosening of investment in the military. Soviet society experienced a relative period of "burgeoise prosperity" in which there was a relative abundance of consumer goods in comparison to other periods.

1968-1985 Brezhnev and succesors' era. USSR intensified again its arms race and reduced again its investment in consumer goods and increased greatly its expenses in military. USSR started entering a great economic crisis. Prostitution greatly increased, corruption increased as well just as alcoholism. USSR entered a war that took its toll on the USSR catalysing the effects of the economic crisis. During this period and the following crime rates steadily grew until the y reached critical points by the mid 80's.

1985-1991 Gorbachyov era. Gorbachyov's reforms gave a final blow to the USSR. Gobachyov's operture policies allowed the crisis to be known widely not only inside but outside USSR increasing dissent. Tolerance to other parties increased as well allowing the formation and strengthening of nationalist groups witin the republics of the USSR. The crisis increased greatly as the invation in Afghanistan became less sustainable. The entrance of foreign companies to the USSR gave the final blow to the already collapsing soviet industry. It was a time full of political and economic chaos. Lots of persons fled the USSR. Chernobil's incident took place aggravating the crisis at all levels. Republics separated, civil wars ensued and the USSR eventually collapsed leaving a bunch of shattered nations full of poverty.

In conclusion, Soviet people's lives were mostly surrounded with a very fluctuating economic condition. Material scarcity in the civilian society struck the soviet society for most of USSR's existance. Yet, most people had access to all levels of education, housing, healthcare and infrastructure. Many former soviets had told me that, inspite of the material scarcity, people were far more fraternal during USSR, people were far more patriotic and educated than they are now, the cultural intregity of USSR greatly surpassed that of Russia, mental illness in USSR was far more scarce than in actual Russia and crimes were much less frequent in USSR than they're now.

There was material scarcity but human-quality wealth, in the words of my gf's mother.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 4:48 am

Well, that's good to hear. Social wealth over all. ^^

As for all the "repressions" and all, just what was the real number and actual figures? Western reports the offical Soviet records as "bullshit propaganda" and lists even over 90 million killed in the Soviet Union alone. That is some serious bullshit.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 5:01 am

Jeiro Sijakeuigwan wrote:
Well, that's good to hear. Social wealth over all. ^^

As for all the "repressions" and all, just what was the real number and actual figures? Western reports the offical Soviet records as "bullshit propaganda" and lists even over 90 million killed in the Soviet Union alone. That is some serious bullshit.

The official figures go around 740,000 executions and around 2-3 million indirectly caused death. The most moderate critic estimates set around 1 million and a half executions and around 4-7 million indirectly caused deaths (gulags and such) most of these during Stalin's regime.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 5:33 am

I just try to avoid the statistics, those numbers are depressing.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 5:57 am

Liche wrote:
I just try to avoid the statistics, those numbers are depressing.

Even one death is atrocious. However, I don't disregard statistics for an important reason: When they're enormously exagerated it is a demonstration of human lives' political capitalization. That is when the party diseminating that propaganda capitalizes on human deaths to defend its political stance without the least regard for the people they're using for their goals.

In the case of USSR, some parties try to argue that the death toll of the government of USSR was 100 million. Such a number is even mathematically absurd since it ammounts for more than the 50% of the soviet population. It demonstrates a blatant attempt to capitalize on deaths to throw dirt to their political enemy and unveils them as hypocrites.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 7:01 am

yea, also reminds me of people saying Nazis threw babys in the air and used them for target practice.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 8:43 am

Liche wrote:
yea, also reminds me of people saying Nazis threw babys in the air and used them for target practice.

To be honest, even if it seems like an exageration, I would really expect that from the SS.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 8:55 am

I'm certain that Stalin executed more than 1 million people, probably serveral times that but it was no were near 100 million.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 4:01 pm

It is virtually imposible to kill 100,000,000 people.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 11:03 pm

Liche wrote:
It is virtually imposible to kill 100,000,000 people.
The USSR and US might have something to say about this if Nucular war started..just sayin
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSat Oct 11, 2008 11:10 pm

Diogritor wrote:
Liche wrote:
It is virtually imposible to kill 100,000,000 people.
The USSR and US might have something to say about this if Nucular war started..just sayin

We're talking about the posibility of doing it with sole prosecution and without producing evidence.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSun Oct 12, 2008 4:29 am

I don't think the possibility of nuclear war was ever nearly as big as either side made it out to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeSun Oct 12, 2008 5:22 am

I agree with oligarch, after people realized what nukes did, I don't think no one had conscience to use one. But, over time people have forgotten this, making them more incline to commit such a horrendous act.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeMon Oct 13, 2008 12:28 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Liche wrote:
yea, also reminds me of people saying Nazis threw babys in the air and used them for target practice.

To be honest, even if it seems like an exageration, I would really expect that from the SS.

My mother told me that Fascist were burning villages down and sometimes crowded a church with men women and children and set it on fire. When mothers threw their babies out of the windows of the church, the SS impaled them on bayonets and threw them back.

I dont know if it's true or not, but I know that German fascists looted villages when they lost soldiers to freedom fighters in that area. I guess they were seeking revenge!
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeMon Oct 13, 2008 1:03 am

Nazis = Human

We = Human


Would you be capable of stabbing a baby with a bayonet? If not, than chances are most other humans would agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeMon Oct 13, 2008 3:05 am

Liche wrote:
Nazis = Human

We = Human


Would you be capable of stabbing a baby with a bayonet? If not, than chances are most other humans would agree.

I'm not a sadistic human who considers another human inferior, and much less for ethnicity.

You're talking about people that believed those babies, their parents and their entire ethinicities to be subhuman.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeMon Oct 13, 2008 4:38 am

You hate Calinis. But would you impale him on a bayonet?
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeMon Oct 13, 2008 4:42 am

Liche wrote:
You hate Calinis. But would you impale him on a bayonet?

I don't consider him subhuman and his ethnic group is not target of an ethnical cleansing campaing by me. In the case of Nazis they had the intention to eliminate entire ethnic groups and enslave others for considering them subhuman.
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PostSubject: Re: Life in the Soviet Union   Life in the Soviet Union Icon_minitimeMon Oct 13, 2008 6:47 am

And here I thought Calinise was a race.... scratch
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