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 who you voting for

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:02 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
Keynesianism =/= Socialism.

I hate people so much. I really, really do.

So true.... but I don't hate people, I like to teach them.

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Liche
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:39 am

If I was 18,
or better yet,
if I was in the Electoral College,
I would vote for the:
SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY
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Alek4A
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:41 am

i vote Mccainn (maybe america will collapse sooner that way)
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WeiWuWei
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:10 am

Black_Cross wrote:
WeiWuWei wrote:
Honestly?
Nader.

Really? He's not gonna win, and if you wanna send a message, you could vote for one of the two socialists.

I considered voting Brian Moore, but, just as you said, as an Anarchist, I see trying to actually influence the institution as being relatively useless. It's a joke; there's no way we can overthrow the dominant power structures - the Republican-Democrat dichotomy - through voting, so it wouldn't really matter whether I voted for or against them. They're too powerful to beat them on their own turf.

The only reason I voted was because of Amendment 2, the bill that tried to legally define marriage between a man and a woman. If not for that, I would have stayed home.
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Liche
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:50 am

I am pro-choice, so I would vote because of that (and other reasons).
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Stos
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:18 am

WeiWuWei wrote:
Black_Cross wrote:
WeiWuWei wrote:
Honestly?
Nader.

Really? He's not gonna win, and if you wanna send a message, you could vote for one of the two socialists.

I considered voting Brian Moore, but, just as you said, as an Anarchist, I see trying to actually influence the institution as being relatively useless. It's a joke; there's no way we can overthrow the dominant power structures - the Republican-Democrat dichotomy - through voting, so it wouldn't really matter whether I voted for or against them. They're too powerful to beat them on their own turf.
Reread that. If we can't break the Republican-Democrat dichotomy, then how the fuck are we supposed to start a majority revolution?

Quote :
If I was 18,
or better yet,
if I was in the Electoral College,
I would vote for the:
SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY
Why the hell would you vote for them?
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WeiWuWei
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:35 pm

Stos wrote:
WeiWuWei wrote:
Black_Cross wrote:
WeiWuWei wrote:
Honestly?
Nader.

Really? He's not gonna win, and if you wanna send a message, you could vote for one of the two socialists.

I considered voting Brian Moore, but, just as you said, as an Anarchist, I see trying to actually influence the institution as being relatively useless. It's a joke; there's no way we can overthrow the dominant power structures - the Republican-Democrat dichotomy - through voting, so it wouldn't really matter whether I voted for or against them. They're too powerful to beat them on their own turf.
Reread that. If we can't break the Republican-Democrat dichotomy, then how the fuck are we supposed to start a majority revolution?

I think we can do it outside of governmental channels by setting up workers' councils (Soviets.), revolutionary industrial unions, and other similar institutions so that workers can organize themselves - but that's only the first step of many. The most important thing is that I don't that think we can dissolve government from the inside, and I also think that a majority revolution probably wouldn't happen from the top-down as it would if we were to affect change in such a place like the Congress, but it would most likely be - and, frankly, it would have to be - from the bottom-up, directly from the people.

What I meant by not being capable of breaking their dichotomy is that we can't do it if our only method of doing so is through voting them out - I most certainly think that we can do it through other means, but I think that when we face them on their own turf, it would be relatively ineffective.

The DNC and RNC are so well-financed and influential that I can't think of a single third-party that could effectively go toe-to-toe with one of them, let alone both of them.
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Stos
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:09 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
What I meant by not being capable of breaking their dichotomy is that we can't do it if our only method of doing so is through voting them out - I most certainly think that we can do it through other means, but I think that when we face them on their own turf, it would be relatively ineffective.
True, we can't effectively take power by simply winning an election, not to mention that we would be fairly disorganized after that, and it would be far more effective if we could organize in the way that we would under socialism, so that we can make a fairly immediate transition. Of course, we would still need an army and such while the revolution hadn't yet taken place internationally, that is, a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. Other than that, we should probably try to emulate socialism as much as possible right after a revolution, rather than some Stalino-Blanquist bullshit justified by mystic dialectical 'contradictions'.
However, if we had a worker's majority, which would be necessary for revolution either way, we could certainly win an election. However, rather than a revolution from above using this victory, I would support a revolution from below, with the newly elected Party just pacifying the coercive forces of the state while the workers take power (by commanding the army to let the workers take the means of production immediately after election, since, of course, soldiers have to pledge loyalty to the government and president, at least in the US), and being replaced with a workers' Socialist Industrial Union (it could be done through Congress, who cares?), which would be international (though probably not yet in power internationally) and decentralized.
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Stos
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:45 pm

You know what the whole 'lesser evil'ism that seems to be around in the socialist movement today reminds me of? Hitler.
See, Hitler was not elected to become Chancellor of Germany. Alright, so there were two major candidates running in the election, both right-wing. Hitler, who was, well, Hitler, and Hindenburg, who was right wing, but not seen as being as bad as Hitler. As a result, the Social-Democratic Party, leading the workers' movement, leaving behind all 'utopian fantasies', decided not to run their own revolutionary candidate against the reactionaries, but instead decided to support Hindenburg as the obvious lesser evil.
They succeeded, and Hindenburg won. Hitler was defeated. Then Hindenburg offered Hitler the position of chancellor, and the Nazis began their takeover.
Sure, the elections aren't exactly comparable (though the recent crisis does seem to move them closer). However, more recently, in 1964, many people voted for LBJ instead of Goldwater, seeing him as a lesser evil, since Goldwater wanted to do horrible things in Vietnam. I'm sure you all know the result, LBJ carried out Goldwater's policies. In fact, LBJ's escalation of the war was even more than Goldwater ever proposed. Unfortunately, Barack Hussein Obama means that we can't come up with snappy lines such as, "LBJ, LBJ, how many kids have you killed today?", but that is besides the point. So who is, then, the lesser evil? Nobody, the question itself is ridiculous. Even if Obama is sincere, and that's a big 'if', he's still going to end up being the same as the 'greater evil', because he has no choice. Again, the US government has never been responsible for anything bad.
So, again, forget this election, what we need is to organize as fast as possible, or things are going downhill very, very quickly.
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Tyrlop
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:47 pm

agreed. also that Hindenburg choosed Hitler because he was dieing and he though Hitler was lesser evil then Thälmann, he also though that he could controll him, but then 1 year later he died. alot of big capitalists supported Hitler in the 1932 elections so hitler changed his party to be more liberal instead of socialist. the capitalists said too that they though they could controlll him. but thats just lies. german investors and capistalists earned many money during hitlers periode. production was also much higher. because people now didnt worked for the money but they worked for the nation. and they worked for new believes, most of them.
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VRaptorX
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:51 pm

Obama. He has teh charisma to actually get dems and reps to work together. He already has some big republicans endorsing him and his plans are better for the middle class. It will be an improvement at least. Noone can fix our economy in 4 years but I think he'll get the energy independence and the school systems.
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Liche
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PostSubject: Re: who you voting for   Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:42 pm

VRaptorX wrote:
Obama. He has teh charisma to actually get dems and reps to work together. He already has some big republicans endorsing him and his plans are better for the middle class. It will be an improvement at least. Noone can fix our economy in 4 years but I think he'll get the energy independence and the school systems.
Yea, I like him cause he at least will try to change stuff.
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