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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:02 pm

They're the same.

Some, for pragmatic reasons, devide them as two stages of the same thing.

According to this, it could be argued that Socialism is merely the stage in which workers have succeded in taking over the means of producton and already coordinate them democratically. It could be argued that communism, in contrast, is merely when said socialism has achieved a functional enough infrastructure to establish an egalitarian society, that is "socialism working at its best".

Not that I utterely agree with this definition, but, as a pragmatic one I think it makes sense. And the understanding of many is similar to this but in a very faint way.

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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:12 pm

isn't socialism like just a cover for states that don't want to get there asses kicked by the us?
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PostSubject: A Path   Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:15 pm

Socialism is the stage of transition of advanced capitalism (imperialism and neo-liberalism) to communism (and egalitarian society without classes), can we not treat socialism as a path instead of a system?
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:39 pm

mattabesta wrote:
isn't socialism like just a cover for states that don't want to get there asses kicked by the us?

No.

Pedrodesa wrote:
Socialism is the stage of transition of advanced capitalism (imperialism and neo-liberalism) to communism (and egalitarian society without classes), can we not treat socialism as a path instead of a system?

It's just that capitalism doesn't magically transforms into socialism. Socialism is a system in which the workers have taken over the means of production and democratically control them.

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Pedrodesa
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:49 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
isn't socialism like just a cover for states that don't want to get there asses kicked by the us?

No.

Pedrodesa wrote:
Socialism is the stage of transition of advanced capitalism (imperialism and neo-liberalism) to communism (and egalitarian society without classes), can we not treat socialism as a path instead of a system?

It's just that capitalism doesn't magically transforms into socialism. Socialism is a system in which the workers have taken over the means of production and democratically control them.

I read in some places:
"Socialism is the dictatorship of the proletariat"
I really do not understand.
how is this?
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:25 pm

Wait a second.

Is it fair to say that all Socialists are Communists? Sure, all Communists are Socialists - and, in fact, most Anarchists are Socialists - but I think it's a little unfair to say that all Socialists support Communism. Some do want to retain a form of State Socialism and are opposed to a Communistic system.

I know it sounds sucky, but hey, there are some that see Socialism as an end rather than as a means.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:21 pm

Communism is flawed. Lenin admitted it, Trotsky pointed it out, Kim Il-Sung attempted to fix it with an even more flawed ideology...

Socialism, on the other hand, allows freedom of the market to an extent, but takes care of those who cannot get ahead. Socialism is the happy medium, in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:22 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
Wait a second.

Is it fair to say that all Socialists are Communists? Sure, all Communists are Socialists - and, in fact, most Anarchists are Socialists - but I think it's a little unfair to say that all Socialists support Communism.

Well, after all I don't think there is a great difference between communists and socialist anarchists. We all are opposed to the same things.

WeiWuWei wrote:

Some do want to retain a form of State Socialism and are opposed to a Communistic system.

This is true. However, if the state passed to control the means of production... would it still be socialism?

WeiWuWei wrote:

I know it sounds sucky, but hey, there are some that see Socialism as an end rather than as a means.

Indeed. Of course when "socialism" is understood in this way. Socialism, in this context, is just the end of capitalism and stablishment of a workers' democracy.

Sungri wrote:
Communism is flawed. Lenin admitted it, Trotsky pointed it out, Kim Il-Sung attempted to fix it with an even more flawed ideology...

Except it was never attempted by anyone for these claims to be valid.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:08 pm

When i was a socialist I never wanted communism
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:23 pm

Yea, I'm a Socialist, but I don't like Communism.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:26 pm

Comrade Pollett wrote:
When i was a socialist I never wanted communism

I hardly think you ever were socialist.

Liche wrote:
Yea, I'm a Socialist, but I don't like Communism.


I doubt you're really a socialist.

Plus both of you hardly know what communism stands for.

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Tyrlop
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:27 pm

zealot no...... lol you cant say ur not socialist just because you dont want communisme.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:29 pm

Tyrlop wrote:
zealot no...... lol you cant say ur not socialist just because you dont want communisme.

I'm not saying they're not socialist for not wanting communism, I'm saying I sincerely doubt they are (were) really socialist ever.

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Liche
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:30 pm

agh, what ever we have to accept his opinion (even though he doesn't really accept ours...).
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:32 pm

Liche wrote:
agh, what ever we have to accept his opinion (even though he doesn't really accept ours...).

You must learn to differetiate between "opinion" and "argument".
Opinion is "white color is nice". Argument is "most people think white color is nice". Opinion is "Hitler was bad". Argument is "Hitler was socialist".

An opinion is attached to a subjective truth whilst an argument is to an objective truth.

In order to disprove my claim you should explain why you're actually socialist instead of engaging in ad baculum or strawman arguements.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:50 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

You must learn to differetiate between "opinion" and "argument".
Opinion is "white color is nice". Argument is "most people think white color is nice". Opinion is "Hitler was bad". Argument is "Hitler was socialist".

An opinion is attached to a subjective truth whilst an argument is to an objective truth.

In order to disprove my claim you should explain why you're actually socialist instead of engaging in ad baculum or strawman arguements.

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Smile Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies combined with tax-funded welfare programs; Libertarian socialism (which includes Socialist Anarchism and Libertarian Marxism) rejects state control and ownership of the economy altogether and advocates direct collective ownership of the means of production via co-operative workers' councils and workplace democracy.

In the 1970s and the 1980s, Yugoslavian, Hungarian, Polish and Chinese Communists instituted various forms of market socialism combining co-operative and State ownership models with the free market exchange. Evil or Very Mad This is unlike the earlier theoretical market socialist proposal put forth by Oskar Lange in that it allows market forces, rather than central planners to guide production and exchange. Anarcho-syndicalists, Luxemburgists (such as those in the Socialist Party USA) and some elements of the United States New Left favor decentralized collective ownership in the form of cooperatives or workers' councils.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:50 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Liche wrote:
agh, what ever we have to accept his opinion (even though he doesn't really accept ours...).

You must learn to differetiate between "opinion" and "argument".
Opinion is "white color is nice". Argument is "most people think white color is nice". Opinion is "Hitler was bad". Argument is "Hitler was socialist".

An opinion is attached to a subjective truth whilst an argument is to an objective truth.

In order to disprove my claim you should explain why you're actually socialist instead of engaging in ad baculum or strawman arguements.
I never thought of it like that Very Happy (but this is no reason to ban me for slander, just putting that out there).
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:00 am

Liche wrote:
I never thought of it like that Very Happy (but this is no reason to ban me for slander, just putting that out there).

What the hell? Just to clarify to you. You claimed that I banned people just for ideology. That is not an opinion, that is an argument and an accusation. Since its false I have grounds to accuse you for slander. That wa already treated in other topic and has nothing to do with the topic treated in this thread.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:00 am

Zealot, explain your stance on what you bieleve Socialism as;
because your seeming to tell Liche and ComradePolett that they are not 'true' socialists, and i dont even need to ask sure you would do the same to national socialists (who obviously dont like communism) and many social dems.

i see this as, if youve studied socialism and agree with it does not mean you want the end stage of communism to happen. i understand a lot of socialism, but i do not see how automatically that inclines you to be a communist at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:35 am

But you have to remember, to critisze socialism or communism you must really understand it, or else your claims are not valid. If you say I don't like socialism because of this, always be netreul( not inclined to one side) because you will miss something or just be biased , the same thing will happen if you do not understand the nature of it or what it stands for. And you also have to remember you don't have to agree with any political stance. Be like Carl, make your own. And it might just be the next big thing. (Or it could be the downfall of the world, so be careful!) Please comment.
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:37 am

Sill wrote:
Zealot, explain your stance on what you bieleve Socialism as;
because your seeming to tell Liche and ComradePolett that they are not 'true' socialists, and i dont even need to ask sure you would do the same to national socialists (who obviously dont like communism) and many social dems.

i see this as, if youve studied socialism and agree with it does not mean you want the end stage of communism to happen. i understand a lot of socialism, but i do not see how automatically that inclines you to be a communist at the same time.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I think that it is because he has said they are the same. (I think they are similar, if not congruent)
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:18 am

Sill wrote:
Zealot, explain your stance on what you bieleve Socialism as;
because your seeming to tell Liche and ComradePolett that they are not 'true' socialists, and i dont even need to ask sure you would do the same to national socialists (who obviously dont like communism) and many social dems.

Pollett has declared not to be socialist. Why do I say he was never socialist? He never gave a single hint of being, all he did was to join the group "socialists".

As for Liche, he is overtly ambiguous about his political views. He claims to be anarchist and socialist but supports police forces implying in that way that he favours some sort of coercion within the society he proclaims to support.

Sill wrote:

i see this as, if youve studied socialism and agree with it does not mean you want the end stage of communism to happen. i understand a lot of socialism, but i do not see how automatically that inclines you to be a communist at the same time.

I gave a definition of socialism at the start of this thread, didn't I? Socialism understood that way is just communism in process since basically communism is the consumation of the goals of equality and social development.

But people like to reply to what they don't read...

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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:51 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
Wait a second.

Is it fair to say that all Socialists are Communists? Sure, all Communists are Socialists - and, in fact, most Anarchists are Socialists - but I think it's a little unfair to say that all Socialists support Communism. Some do want to retain a form of State Socialism and are opposed to a Communistic system.
Well, yes, all socialists are communists, because it's the same thing. Blanquists are communists, for example. Anarcho-syndies, mutualists, council commies, De Leonists, etc, are communists too.

Quote :
because your seeming to tell Liche and ComradePolett that they are not 'true' socialists, and i dont even need to ask sure you would do the same to national socialists (who obviously dont like communism) and many social dems.
Liche only advocates a dictatorship of the proletariat, though his version is silly and will turn into a dictatorship over the proletariat after a few minutes (or months, as in the bolshie revolution). Also, 'national socialists' aren't socialist at all. What the hell?
Also, 'social democrats' stole their name from us socialists, but they're not at all socialist.


Quote :
see this as, if youve studied socialism and agree with it does not mean you want the end stage of communism to happen. i understand a lot of socialism, but i do not see how automatically that inclines you to be a communist at the same time.
Due to the fact that they're the same thing, and Zealot's just redefining them for no apparent reason.

Quote :
Communism is flawed. Lenin admitted it, Trotsky pointed it out, Kim Il-Sung attempted to fix it with an even more flawed ideology...
Fuck all three of them. In fact, that's a good order to put them in. Lenin was bad, Trotky was worse, Kim Il-Sung was even worse.

Comrade Pollett wrote:
When i was a socialist I never wanted communism
lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:03 pm

Stos wrote:

Due to the fact that they're the same thing, and Zealot's just redefining them for no apparent reason.

It's not even an attempt at a redefinition and I believe the starting post in this thread is quite clear on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Socialism vs. Communism   Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:10 am

The way I see Communism and Socialism is a partnership Communism - More of a Military regime... Stalin made communism a Total War political party with the 5 year plans, with the phrase "2 steps forward 1 step back" While Socialism is more well... Social... Its the Diplomats communism... Communism is socialism where Diplomacy Failed.
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