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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: A couple of questions   Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:25 pm

1. Are you rich or at least enjoy of above-average economic capabilities?

2. Do you or your family own a business?

3. Do you or your family have workers working for you?

4. If the answers to all previous questions are negative, and you work, do you like working your at a rate imposed by someone who claims ownership over the place where you work, the tools and overall means employed by you to work in order to produce or assist in the production and/or provision of a product and/or service so you can get paid a fraction of that product/service value providing thus the owner of that product with the possibility to get rich at your expense?

5. If answer to question 3 is negative but answer to question 2 is possitive and answer to question 1 is negative, do you like to engage in an increasingly intense competition against both those in a similar condition to yours and those with even better conditions than yours knowing that the sucess of your business and thus your economical integrity depend essentially on luck? A luck that without doubt ought to be much better for those with easier access to resources. (Luck here is to be defined as all the factors not determined by you which nonetheless influde in your activities i.e the conditions since your birth, weather, the environment in which you develop your business, competitors' behaviour and overall social behaviour, legal and economic frameworks). In case answer 1 is possitive consider just the competition and luck factor from your perspective.

6. If questions 1, 2 and 3 were answered possitively, a)do you like to exploit workforce thriving at their expense? b)Do you consider that you are providing them with a benefit even though essentially you and others of your kind determine their economic conditions and thus have an overtly relevant influence over their lives, probably to the extent that you actually determine their living conditions? c) do you consider that you deserve to enjoy better living conditions than those working for you? d) do you consider you are superior to those working for you? e) in case a and b were answered possitively, 1)do you think that workers are aware of these conditions, that they can change them and just decided to willingly accept them and that they agree with you? If so, 2) how is that? 3) Are you aware that it just takes workers to realize they can change these conditions in order to deprive you from those priviledges? 4) Can you explain how, even though you and those of your kind literally determine the living conditions of all workers thus depriving them from the posibility to rule their own lives (at least not outside a framework delimited by you) you provide them with a benefit? f) in case c and/or d were answered possitively, can you sustain your claim(s) with arguements?

7. Do you directly have a say on the way economy and society work?

8. If question 7 was answered negatively, do you like that condition even though it implies that so long as you keep within said social framework your freedom is limited and thus decided by others? 2) Do you think that a majority of people fall within this category? And if so and you answered negatively to the first question, 3) do you think this condition is legitimate?

9. If you answered possitively to question 7, how?

10. Would you like the status quo to change? If so, into what?

----

My answers:

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. - Although I don't like the idea of working for a boss.
5. - In case I had answered possitively to question 2 then no.
6. a) no b) no c) no d) no
7. No.
8. 1) no. 2) yes. 3) no.
9. -
10. Yes. Into socialism.

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Stos
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:47 pm

Hmmm, working on your questionaire, I see?

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
1. Are you rich or at least enjoy of above-average economic capabilities?
Am I rich? Of course not, I'm a minor, and not a pop star. Razz
My family is well off, however (upper-income working class).

Quote :
2. Do you or your family own a business?
No.

Quote :
3. Do you or your family have workers working for you?
No.

Quote :
4. If the answers to all previous questions are negative, and you work, do you like working your at a rate imposed by someone who claims ownership over the place where you work, the tools and overall means employed by you to work in order to produce or assist in the production and/or provision of a product and/or service so you can get paid a fraction of that product/service value providing thus the owner of that product with the possibility to get rich at your expense?
No.
I mean, I don't have a job, but I do go to school (The Singaporean government: Proving that there's no government like no government since some year or the other). Fuck school.

Quote :
5. If answer to question 3 is negative but answer to question 2 is possitive and answer to question 1 is negative, do you like to engage in an increasingly intense competition against both those in a similar condition to yours and those with even better conditions than yours knowing that the sucess of your business and thus your economical integrity depend essentially on luck? A luck that without doubt ought to be much better for those with easier access to resources. (Luck here is to be defined as all the factors not determined by you which nonetheless influde in your activities i.e the conditions since your birth, weather, the environment in which you develop your business, competitors' behaviour and overall social behaviour, legal and economic frameworks). In case answer 1 is possitive consider just the competition and luck factor from your perspective.
I only engage in competition on the sports field, and even then, only against the opposition.

Quote :
7. Do you directly have a say on the way economy and society work?
No.

Quote :
8. If question 7 was answered negatively, do you like that condition even though it implies that so long as you keep within said social framework your freedom is limited and thus decided by others? 2) Do you think that a majority of people fall within this category? And if so and you answered negatively to the first question, 3) do you think this condition is legitimate?
1. No.
2. Yes.
3. No.

Quote :
10. Would you like the status quo to change? If so, into what?
Socialism, but you knew that.
Also, it looks like you're not even being consistent to your definition of socialism. Razz
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:32 pm

Stos wrote:
Hmmm, working on your questionaire, I see?

Not really, I just came up with these questions suddenly taking into account that many here seem to have the idea that many non capitalists actually folow the "capitalist ideology" so I'm probing that.

Stos wrote:

Am I rich? Of course not, I'm a minor, and not a pop star. Razz
My family is well off, however (upper-income working class).

I guess I should reformulate the question eve though it's perhaps clear enough Razz




Stos wrote:

Socialism, but you knew that.
Also, it looks like you're not even being consistent to your definition of socialism. Razz

How come am I not being consistent to my definition of socialism? Razz

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:27 pm

No.
No.
No.
No, unemployed. Job market here is shit. Besides, "getting rich at my expence" is a bit much here. Most nobody "gets rich" here. They're getting paid about the same as me, after rent and bills and such to keep the place running. Mabe a little more, due to seniority, or ownership, but the amount in quite negligable.
Skip.
Skip.
Voting. Not direct, but it is there, and I could become a candidate for parliment. It's like kindergaten!
Skip.
Read above.
I suppose, but really I'd just go with the flow unless entirely controlling. Fascism, Stalinism, evil dictatorship, etc. are bad, to say the least.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:45 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
1. Are you rich or at least enjoy of above-average economic capabilities?
nOpe, i'm pretty sure.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
2. Do you or your family own a business?
No.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
3. Do you or your family have workers working for you?
nO.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
4. If the answers to all previous questions are negative, and you work, do you like working your at a rate imposed by someone who claims ownership over the place where you work, the tools and overall means employed by you to work in order to produce or assist in the production and/or provision of a product and/or service so you can get paid a fraction of that product/service value providing thus the owner of that product with the possibility to get rich at your expense?
Can't really awnser that for the reason I don't work, well I do work at the newspaper but I dont except a share of the richdom 'cause i'm so young.


Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
7. Do you directly have a say on the way economy and society work?
No, maybe when i'm older though.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
8. If question 7 was answered negatively, do you like that condition even though it implies that so long as you keep within said social framework your freedom is limited and thus decided by others? 2) Do you think that a majority of people fall within this category? And if so and you answered negatively to the first question, 3) do you think this condition is legitimate?
1.Yes.
2.I really don't know.
3. -

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
9. If you answered possitively to question 7, how?
I don't get it, how what? And which question/part of question 7 there's a),b) und c)..?

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
10. Would you like the status quo to change? If so, into what?
My country?
Well more right-wing party's in coalitions, further i'm fine with the current system/rules and economy, though some not, but hey can't really complain.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:53 pm

CoolKidX wrote:

I don't get it, how what? And which question/part of question 7 there's a),b) und c)..?

You didn't answer positively to question 7 so there's no reason to answer question 9.

CoolKidX wrote:

My country?
Well more right-wing party's in coalitions, further i'm fine with the current system/rules and economy, though some not, but hey can't really complain.

The actual condition, essentially. That's what "status quo" stands for. So you're satisfied with it?

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:46 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:


You didn't answer positively to question 7 so there's no reason to answer question 9.
Sorry misread.


Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
The actual condition, essentially. That's what "status quo" stands for. So you're satisfied with it?
Hmm....
This time, yes, maybe a other time no though.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:51 am

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. Skip
5. Skip
6. No
7. SKip
8. Yes, Yes, Yes
10. Status Quo= Perefectly fine, exept for the righting vote, it should be restrained. I think mentally retarded people can vote.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:41 am

Jesus wrote:
1. Yes
What's the source of your wealth then?


Jesus wrote:

7. SKip
8. Yes, Yes, Yes

How on Earth can you answer a question that requires you to first answer another question that you chose to skip?

Jesus wrote:

10. Status Quo= Perefectly fine, exept for the righting vote, it should be restrained. I think mentally retarded people can vote.

"Righting vote" LOLPUNANAGRAMBADENGLISH. Lore mike "voting right" arimite?

Really? So, 1)how is the status quo perfectly fine? and 2)why do you think mentally retarded people can vote? 3)why do you think its relevant whatsoever?

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:04 pm

1. No, if we're just talking about my country. I think every American would have to answer in the affirmative if we're talking about the whole world though.
2. No.
3. No.
4. The short answer is No. The long answer is, "I can't think of a single decent Socialist who would say Yes".
5. n/a, voted negative on all.
6. n/a, voted negative on all.
7. Only insofar as one single consumer in a market can, which isn't that much. Actually, it's basically nothing.
8. No, then Yes, and then No.
9. n/a
10. Yes. People should make income proportionately due to how much effort and sacrifice they contribute in the workplace. Thus, some pencil-pushing boss wouldn't make as much as, say, an assembly-line worker. Roughly, this is how I would like society to work, though it's a very broad description.
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:12 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
"Righting vote" LOLPUNANAGRAMBADENGLISH. Lore mike "voting right" arimite?


Zealot, its okay to correct people, but what the fuck came that from?
Like I always thought you were that serious guy then all like "LOLPUNANAGRAMBADENGLISH"...

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:07 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
1. No, if we're just talking about my country. I think every American would have to answer in the affirmative if we're talking about the whole world though.

Very nice answer, actually very good one.

WeiWuWei wrote:

4. The short answer is No. The long answer is, "I can't think of a single decent Socialist who would say Yes".

Me either...

WeiWuWei wrote:

7. Only insofar as one single consumer in a market can, which isn't that much. Actually, it's basically nothing.
Thank you for this answer.


WeiWuWei wrote:

10. Yes. People should make income proportionately due to how much effort and sacrifice they contribute in the workplace. Thus, some pencil-pushing boss wouldn't make as much as, say, an assembly-line worker. Roughly, this is how I would like society to work, though it's a very broad description.

Would it be something like Parecon? And indeed this is a very broad subject for we'd have to engage in the debate of the parameters to be employed to determine who contributes more. However, I think that we could actually have a scheme like this working under a socialist framework so long as this could never imply that those who work more can eventually control others economically which I think that, in essence, is what you want.

CoolKidX wrote:
Zealot, its okay to correct people, but what the fuck came that from?
Like I always thought you were that serious guy then all like "LOLPUNANAGRAMBADENGLISH"...

After dealing so much with trolls and people of such sorts I wouldn't be sure wether that was a sincere mistake or just a troll-like attempt at being funny.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:34 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

After dealing so much with trolls and people of such sorts I wouldn't be sure wether that was a sincere mistake or just a troll-like attempt at being funny.

Sounds fair.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:56 am

Nah Honnest Mistake. I was kinda tired. Anyway, yeah people just justificate they're vote in some kind of way. I heard some old folks say shit like ''i voted that party all my life and i will continue whatever they do'' How is that Democracy?

And well, they don't own a business and do not directly own workers, my parents are simply higher in business pyramidal ranking than the average man.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:14 am

Jesus wrote:
Nah Honnest Mistake. I was kinda tired. Anyway, yeah people just justificate they're vote in some kind of way. I heard some old folks say shit like ''i voted that party all my life and i will continue whatever they do'' How is that Democracy?

I don't know how that is democracy... ask someone who thinks that's democracy.

Jesus wrote:

And well, they don't own a business and do not directly own workers, my parents are simply higher in business pyramidal ranking than the average man.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're arguing that somehow economic relationships work like a foodchain?

What do you mean with "business pyramidal ranking"? They don't own a business and don't directly own workers (understanding this as "they don't have wokers working fo them". Then they work. Right?

And I apologize for assuing you were trying to troll.

Also, it's "their" not "they're" and "your" not "you're". Just to clear it up.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:17 am

Quote :
Also, it's "their" not "their"


hmm intersting thoery
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:56 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Would it be something like Parecon? And indeed this is a very broad subject for we'd have to engage in the debate of the parameters to be employed to determine who contributes more. However, I think that we could actually have a scheme like this working under a socialist framework so long as this could never imply that those who work more can eventually control others economically which I think that, in essence, is what you want.

I agree with you completely. And Parecon - more than most Anarchistic and Socialistic teachings - is what I tend to base my economic ideas off of, though Kropotkin and Marx are both extremely influential in the way that I think about economics, as well.
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:42 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
1. No, if we're just talking about my country. I think every American would have to answer in the affirmative if we're talking about the whole world though.
Bullshit.

Quote :
I agree with you completely. And Parecon - more than most Anarchistic and Socialistic teachings - is what I tend to base my economic ideas off of, though Kropotkin and Marx are both extremely influential in the way that I think about economics, as well.
Parecon is De Leonism for sissies. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:01 am

Stos wrote:

Parecon is De Leonism for sissies. Razz

well true, but their are exceptions to that.
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:25 am

deleonism is marxism for bleeding hearts who didnt experience enough exploitation to be realy militant towrards capitlist espaloiters
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:06 am

No zealot, by pyramid, i only mean higher you are fewer you are, well that applies to the food chain 2.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:45 am

Jesus wrote:
No zealot, by pyramid, i only mean higher you are fewer you are, well that applies to the food chain 2.

But what do you mean? What do they do to get income? And no, the food chain doesn't work like economic relationships..

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:19 pm

Quote :
1. Are you rich or at least enjoy of above-average economic capabilities?

No, nir me, nir the rest of my familly (Grand-Parents, uncle etc.) is rich even if both of my parents have good salairies. Some years ago, if I'm right, we lost someting like 300 000$... (I won't tell about the reason, to be respectfull)

Quote :
2. Do you or your family own a business?

No.

Quote :
3. Do you or your family have workers working for you?

Not at all.

Quote :
4. If the answers to all previous questions are negative, and you work, do you like working your at a rate imposed by someone who claims ownership over the place where you work, the tools and overall means employed by you to work in order to produce or assist in the production and/or provision of a product and/or service so you can get paid a fraction of that product/service value providing thus the owner of that product with the possibility to get rich at your expense?

Of course no. I don't think anybody like to be exploited.

Quote :
5. If answer to question 3 is negative but answer to question 2 is possitive and answer to question 1 is negative, do you like to engage in an increasingly intense competition against both those in a similar condition to yours and those with even better conditions than yours knowing that the sucess of your business and thus your economical integrity depend essentially on luck? A luck that without doubt ought to be much better for those with easier access to resources. (Luck here is to be defined as all the factors not determined by you which nonetheless influde in your activities i.e the conditions since your birth, weather, the environment in which you develop your business, competitors' behaviour and overall social behaviour, legal and economic frameworks). In case answer 1 is possitive consider just the competition and luck factor from your perspective.

Quote :
6. If questions 1, 2 and 3 were answered possitively, a)do you like to exploit workforce thriving at their expense? b)Do you consider that you are providing them with a benefit even though essentially you and others of your kind determine their economic conditions and thus have an overtly relevant influence over their lives, probably to the extent that you actually determine their living conditions? c) do you consider that you deserve to enjoy better living conditions than those working for you? d) do you consider you are superior to those working for you? e) in case a and b were answered possitively, 1)do you think that workers are aware of these conditions, that they can change them and just decided to willingly accept them and that they agree with you? If so, 2) how is that? 3) Are you aware that it just takes workers to realize they can change these conditions in order to deprive you from those priviledges? 4) Can you explain how, even though you and those of your kind literally determine the living conditions of all workers thus depriving them from the posibility to rule their own lives (at least not outside a framework delimited by you) you provide them with a benefit? f) in case c and/or d were answered possitively, can you sustain your claim(s) with arguements?

Quote :
7. Do you directly have a say on the way economy and society work?

Yes.

Quote :
8. If question 7 was answered negatively, do you like that condition even though it implies that so long as you keep within said social framework your freedom is limited and thus decided by others? 2) Do you think that a majority of people fall within this category? And if so and you answered negatively to the first question, 3) do you think this condition is legitimate?

Quote :
9. If you answered possitively to question 7, how?

Voting (in two years) and Free Speech

Quote :
10. Would you like the status quo to change? If so, into what?

No, at least for here, in Canada. I think the system works quite well. It's not perfect, for sure, but there's regulations; Free Healt Care, Free Education and Free Services. Compagnies are also regulated and workers have rights (minimum salairy -8,50$/hour-, good conditions of work -security- I think everything is well balanced. We have to pay a lot to the state, thought, but It's for good reasons ^^

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:46 pm

Lilith wrote:


No, nir me, nir the rest of my familly (Grand-Parents, uncle etc.) is rich even if both of my parents have good salairies. Some years ago, if I'm right, we lost someting like 300 000$... (I won't tell about the reason, to be respectfull)

But you acknowledge they have good salaries, which would make you enjoy an above-average economic capability. Right?




Lilith wrote:


Of course no. I don't think anybody like to be exploited.

Then I have two questions:

Would you be eager to work for a company?

Why are there so many large enterprises with even hundreads of thousands of workers even millions?




Lilith wrote:

Quote :
9. If you answered possitively to question 7, how?

Voting (in two years) and Free Speech

And how exactly is it a direct way to determine things?

Lilith wrote:


No, at least for here, in Canada. I think the system works quite well. It's not perfect, for sure, but there's regulations; Free Healt Care, Free Education and Free Services. Compagnies are also regulated and workers have rights (minimum salairy -8,50$/hour-, good conditions of work -security- I think everything is well balanced. We have to pay a lot to the state, thought, but It's for good reasons ^^

So you don't like exploitation but you wouldn't like the status quo to change in Canada. Explain that oxymoron please.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:37 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Jesus wrote:
No zealot, by pyramid, i only mean higher you are fewer you are, well that applies to the food chain 2.

But what do you mean? What do they do to get income? And no, the food chain doesn't work like economic relationships..

Well they ''Supervise'' the work of normal employees. They manage important parts of the company they work for.

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PostSubject: Re: A couple of questions   Today at 4:31 pm

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A couple of questions
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