- CoolKidX wrote:
So Hamas can shoot freely on not only Isrealy soldiers but also civilians?
Did I say that? No.
How the fuck does dropping 100 tons of explosives on Palestinians prevent Israelis to get killed? From this horribly shallow perspective this even breeds more hatred and more potencial militants and suicide bombers.
And I insist, this is a shallow perspective towards the conflict.
This conflict has to be understood since its begining.
Long story short: A bunch of Americans, Europeans and Soviets decided that piece of land belonged to them. What did they have in common? They all, at least in theory, practiced the Jewish religion. So they decided to go with the blessing of practically every fucking empire and with military support from all (Zionist independentists used weaponry from USSR, USA, Britain, Nazi Germany and France) and grab that land by sheer force splitting the Palestinian population in three: One portion was expelled to south Lebanon (where Hizb' allah comes from), other was chucked in the West Bank and the other reduced to Gaza.
Once that land was secured more and more Jews decided it was a good place to go to and Stalin thought it was an awesome idea to get as many Soviet Jews into Irsael as possible. And there you go: a couple million foreigners entered and populated what used to be Palestine and completely displaced the original inhabitants.
Shortly after, that land lost the support of the USSR, but it gained USA and France the first being the country that literally keeps Israel alive and the second the one that ensured Israel would get nuclear technology and ballistic missiles technology.
And why was this motion supported by so many? Because of the Holocaust... Interesting morality we got here: So Germany beats the crap out of the Jews and they suddenly have the right to beat the crap out of the Palestinians so they can create a State and then keep that state by utter repression and by converting one of the territories they forced Palestinians to move in into a Ghetto surrounded by tanks, combat helicopters and navy. And lets not forget constant bombings at Israeli government's will. Interesting moral standards indeed.
Some argue that several rich Jews bought that land from the British mandate. I mean, who the fuck can agree with such a ridiculous logic? So somewhoe British were the legitimate owners or what?
Others say "But look at what Israelis have done! They transformed a desert into a paradise! They deserve it!" Well, I won't argue about their concept of "paradise" but certainly what such a statement implies is that Israel developed very quickly and that Israelis did in a couple of decades what Palestinians didn't do it centuries or whatever. Supposing we're going to take such a stupid statement as a valid reason to claim ownership over land let's see it from this perspective:
Palestine would have also developed that much if, just like Israel, it had receieved and kept receiving so much aid from a superpower like USA and if 70-80% of its initial population had consisted of workers and academics prepared in the most industrialized and technologically advanced countries.
And now comes the sweetest part: Jews deserve the land they lost 2,000 years ago, specially when Hitler killed a 3rd of them during WWII and they had suffered antisemitic prosecution in Russian and western Europe... So they created something called Zionism. Zionism is one of the strangest forms of nationalism but also one of the least valid, even from its own perspective.
The concept of Jewish nation comes from three main points:
1. The practice of Jewish religion.
2. Jerusalem being the holy city of that religion.
3. Being descendants of the original jews that inhabited Palestine that fled pushed by Romans. Thus having legitimate right over "the land of our ancestors".
These points can be rebutted in the next way:
1. Most persons who claim to practice the Jewish religion actually violate most if not all of the "mitzvot". A "Mitzvah" (pl. Mitzvot) is a religious duty that the good Jew will practice.
There are 357 Mitzvot for men and around 7 for women (being the inferior beings they're they should be confered less responsability right?). These mitzvot are a bunch. 95% of those that claim to practice Judaism don't even know 10% of them and hardly practice 5 mitzvot.
Among the most important mitzvot is respecting Sabath. A way to respect it is not to cook, not to take a shower and not causing even a single spark during Saturday (Israel's time mind me telling you). If you as a jew dare to even turn on your car on Saturday, sir, you're commiting a sin. If you dare cooking on Saturday, you're not being a good Jew, oh no.
Also the ten comandments... tasty. Lets go with the "Thou shalt not murder" babble.
Imagine if you can't set a single spark or turn on ligts.... how good practicioner of Judaism can be a guy that hops in a combat Jet, turns on its engines and flies just to drop a couple of tons of High Explosives over some people on Sabbath? Not an exemplar jew huh?
Also, orthodox jews, our exemplar jews here, are actually very good friends with Islamic extremists. You know why? Because, like them, they want Israel destroyed. "Holy Shit! For Hashem! But they're also jews!!!" you'll say. Well, they're not only jews. If I was asked who is a Jew I'd say "These crazy guys with their coats, beards and dreidels and that don't take showers on Saturdays. Those are the real Jews". No one follows the religion as closely as them. They even hurl stones at Israelis that go by car on saturday for being "fake Jews" (those Israeli jew-posers...).
So why are they against Israel? Simple: Jews are not to inhabit the promise land until the Messiah comes. And the messiah hasn't come. For them, ackowleding Israel is like aknowledging the Messiah has come and that probably someone as unjew as David Ben Gurion was him.
Point: The sole existance of Israel is against judaism and its practices are horribly unjewish. The furthest many "jews" in Israel will get to being jew is speaking hebrew, making their Bar-Mitzvah and wearing T-shirts reading "I'm Jewcy".
2. The holy city of that religion... well, it is a holy city for three religions. If it's such a tremendous necesity for practicioners of these religions (more than 50% of the world) to go to this city at least once in their life the solution is simple: let it be of free access to any of those religions. Let it be administrated in equal parts by a Jewish council, a Muslim council and a Christian council. Period. How does this being a holy city for jews justify expelling people from their homes? If you justify that, then you better acknowledge crusades and jihad as ilegitimate wars too.
3. The premise is that all Jews were expelled from Judea and they diseminated along the Roman Empire and outside. What's the reference and evidence of that? I wonder... But hey does it make any sense? Was that a common practice by the Roman Empire? Was palestine such a special place the Pagan romans needed to empty it and perhaps move there? No. In reality the original Jews remained settled in Judea. Several thousands did leave to other places but they were a minority.
So what happened? Why are there so many jews outside palestine? What happened to those jews?
While a vast majority of the original jews remained in Palestine, judaism, the religion, did spread. It spread into Central Asia and was embraced by the Khazars (don't remember if this is teh right spelling), it spred so far as into Yemen and it spread into Africa as far as Morocco and Ethiopia (never seen a black Jew? Then you've never seen the Ethiopian jewish community!).
The Khazars were pushed by the Mongols into Russia, Poland and Eastern Europe from where they spread all over Europe (but Russia and Poland remained the core places where they inhabited). Eventually they got mixed with Germans, saxons, Slavians, Hungarians and so on. They formed what is known today as Ashkenazim, or the European Jews. They form arguably the largest Jewish group today. It's where some of my roots come from.
Most of those that spread so far as into Yemen more lately began embracing christianity and eventally Islam. But some arabic Jews remained. They're called the Mizrahim.
Several berber tribes from North Africa also embraced Judaism. Actually there was a Jewish Berber Kingdom in north Africa which is the one Arabs fought against during the Jihad for the conquest of North Africa. A great part of these Jews embraced Islam but a considerable part remained Jews under muslim rule. Together with muslims they conquered Spain and most of them settled there until the Spanish reconquest. These Jews are called the Sefardim. Many of them later left for the Ottoman Empire where they were not as repressed as in the Christian empires.
The Ethiopian jews... well... their prominence has been horribly overshadowed by Ashkenazims' prominence. Actually many Jews don't know there are jews in Ethiopia and would hardly find them "real Jews" forr they don't look white or just slightly dark.
That's why most Jews come from outside Palestine and why there is so much ethnical diversity among jews.
And what happened with the original jews that stayed in Judea? They eventually embraced Christianism and then Islam. They're known today as Palestinians.
So, taking all that into account even if Israel reasons to exist were to be considered valid, even if Zionism was to be accepted, the pillars that sustain the legitimacy of the State of Israel are fake.
So, before bitching about how righteous it is that Israel bombs the shit out of Palestinians cause of some sugar and fertilizer made rockets that have hit Israeli people with a quite small death toll (despicable but small) and with an even smaller accuracy rate, what about taking history into consideration? Even if you favour nationalism and such things.