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revolution
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PostSubject: I hope Hamas wins   Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:58 pm

Who's with me?

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:06 pm

Hamas won't win. I hope it's the Palestinian people who win and, according to some Israeli historians, they eventually will.

Many things are being found by Israeli and Jewish historians themselves that shatter Israel's legitimacy even from nationalist perspectives rendering Israel's existance absolutely groundless.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:13 am

I hope they both loose and are forced into an unbeliveing standpoint so it no longer becomes "holy land", thus peace.

Won't happen, though.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:34 am

i hope that suddenly the problem dissapears and i can play xbox for a while untill i have to sleep.
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:13 am

I hope they lose.
And Isreal will stop attacking.

But hey, Isreal und Hamas had a stop-fireing thingy, Hamas didnt want it anymore, so here they are.

And its terrible already so goddamn many civilians have died, and if you look at it, its Hamas fault, they started attacking again.

And Isreal should also be more careful, already over 600 civilians died...that's many.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:10 pm

CoolKidX wrote:
I hope they lose.
And Isreal will stop attacking.

But hey, Isreal und Hamas had a stop-fireing thingy, Hamas didnt want it anymore, so here they are.

And its terrible already so goddamn many civilians have died, and if you look at it, its Hamas fault, they started attacking again.

They requested Israel to lift the sea blockade, Israel didn't.

And in the first place those who call themselves Israelis literally conquered Palestine so its their fault.

CoolKidX wrote:

And Isreal should also be more careful, already over 600 civilians died...that's many.

More careful? What about not attacking at all? What about stop besieging? What about having not expelled Palestinians for the lands they inhabited originally?

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:23 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
More careful? What about not attacking at all? What about stop besieging? What about having not expelled Palestinians for the lands they inhabited originally?

So Hamas can shoot freely on not only Isrealy soldiers but also civilians?

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:36 pm

I hope the PLO comes back to power. Hamas won't do much the Palestinian people.
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:40 pm

Not me.
I'm with the left commies on this one.
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:06 pm

I'm not really in favor of Hamas "winning", but I hope something good happens for the Palestinian people.

I just hope that people won't continue to use antisemitism as a veil to cover Palestinian suffering, because it's unfair.
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:55 pm

Yea, I hope for at least a soon end to this war, and at the end I hope the Palestinians get something good (like their own country).
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:04 pm

Hamas was diging tunnels to bring in weapons because they thought Isreal would attack. Isreal bombed the tunnels. Hamas was proven right. But they provoked Isreael to bomb those tunnels. But Isreal knew they would use those weapons. Which they did to retaliate for the bombing, so it's a good thing they brought them in. But that made them get bombed. So they were right.

You see the problem?

That's what broke the ceasefire. Technically wasn't even the blockade, though that didn't make anyone happy.

"Holy Land" is a fucking joke.

Everyone is at fault, not the least of which, yes I'm going there, America. They have backed Isreal the entire time, even when they're just being douches and unreasonale. Like the blockade. But yeah, both Isreal and Hamas are at fault equally.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:28 am

At this point, I don't think any militant organization in Palestine to be responsible for the conflict, it doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel will find some excuse to attack.
That said, any and all attacks on Israel are completely justified as Israel is the aggressor.
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:59 am

why dosent Israel just say:

WERE ATTACKING THEM CAUSE THEIR NOT JEWS!
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:46 am

CoolKidX wrote:


So Hamas can shoot freely on not only Isrealy soldiers but also civilians?
Did I say that? No.

How the fuck does dropping 100 tons of explosives on Palestinians prevent Israelis to get killed? From this horribly shallow perspective this even breeds more hatred and more potencial militants and suicide bombers.

And I insist, this is a shallow perspective towards the conflict.

This conflict has to be understood since its begining.

Long story short: A bunch of Americans, Europeans and Soviets decided that piece of land belonged to them. What did they have in common? They all, at least in theory, practiced the Jewish religion. So they decided to go with the blessing of practically every fucking empire and with military support from all (Zionist independentists used weaponry from USSR, USA, Britain, Nazi Germany and France) and grab that land by sheer force splitting the Palestinian population in three: One portion was expelled to south Lebanon (where Hizb' allah comes from), other was chucked in the West Bank and the other reduced to Gaza.

Once that land was secured more and more Jews decided it was a good place to go to and Stalin thought it was an awesome idea to get as many Soviet Jews into Irsael as possible. And there you go: a couple million foreigners entered and populated what used to be Palestine and completely displaced the original inhabitants.

Shortly after, that land lost the support of the USSR, but it gained USA and France the first being the country that literally keeps Israel alive and the second the one that ensured Israel would get nuclear technology and ballistic missiles technology.

And why was this motion supported by so many? Because of the Holocaust... Interesting morality we got here: So Germany beats the crap out of the Jews and they suddenly have the right to beat the crap out of the Palestinians so they can create a State and then keep that state by utter repression and by converting one of the territories they forced Palestinians to move in into a Ghetto surrounded by tanks, combat helicopters and navy. And lets not forget constant bombings at Israeli government's will. Interesting moral standards indeed.

Some argue that several rich Jews bought that land from the British mandate. I mean, who the fuck can agree with such a ridiculous logic? So somewhoe British were the legitimate owners or what?

Others say "But look at what Israelis have done! They transformed a desert into a paradise! They deserve it!" Well, I won't argue about their concept of "paradise" but certainly what such a statement implies is that Israel developed very quickly and that Israelis did in a couple of decades what Palestinians didn't do it centuries or whatever. Supposing we're going to take such a stupid statement as a valid reason to claim ownership over land let's see it from this perspective:

Palestine would have also developed that much if, just like Israel, it had receieved and kept receiving so much aid from a superpower like USA and if 70-80% of its initial population had consisted of workers and academics prepared in the most industrialized and technologically advanced countries.


And now comes the sweetest part: Jews deserve the land they lost 2,000 years ago, specially when Hitler killed a 3rd of them during WWII and they had suffered antisemitic prosecution in Russian and western Europe... So they created something called Zionism. Zionism is one of the strangest forms of nationalism but also one of the least valid, even from its own perspective.

The concept of Jewish nation comes from three main points:
1. The practice of Jewish religion.
2. Jerusalem being the holy city of that religion.
3. Being descendants of the original jews that inhabited Palestine that fled pushed by Romans. Thus having legitimate right over "the land of our ancestors".


These points can be rebutted in the next way:
1. Most persons who claim to practice the Jewish religion actually violate most if not all of the "mitzvot". A "Mitzvah" (pl. Mitzvot) is a religious duty that the good Jew will practice.

There are 357 Mitzvot for men and around 7 for women (being the inferior beings they're they should be confered less responsability right?). These mitzvot are a bunch. 95% of those that claim to practice Judaism don't even know 10% of them and hardly practice 5 mitzvot.

Among the most important mitzvot is respecting Sabath. A way to respect it is not to cook, not to take a shower and not causing even a single spark during Saturday (Israel's time mind me telling you). If you as a jew dare to even turn on your car on Saturday, sir, you're commiting a sin. If you dare cooking on Saturday, you're not being a good Jew, oh no.

Also the ten comandments... tasty. Lets go with the "Thou shalt not murder" babble.

Imagine if you can't set a single spark or turn on ligts.... how good practicioner of Judaism can be a guy that hops in a combat Jet, turns on its engines and flies just to drop a couple of tons of High Explosives over some people on Sabbath? Not an exemplar jew huh?

Also, orthodox jews, our exemplar jews here, are actually very good friends with Islamic extremists. You know why? Because, like them, they want Israel destroyed. "Holy Shit! For Hashem! But they're also jews!!!" you'll say. Well, they're not only jews. If I was asked who is a Jew I'd say "These crazy guys with their coats, beards and dreidels and that don't take showers on Saturdays. Those are the real Jews". No one follows the religion as closely as them. They even hurl stones at Israelis that go by car on saturday for being "fake Jews" (those Israeli jew-posers...).

So why are they against Israel? Simple: Jews are not to inhabit the promise land until the Messiah comes. And the messiah hasn't come. For them, ackowleding Israel is like aknowledging the Messiah has come and that probably someone as unjew as David Ben Gurion was him.

Point: The sole existance of Israel is against judaism and its practices are horribly unjewish. The furthest many "jews" in Israel will get to being jew is speaking hebrew, making their Bar-Mitzvah and wearing T-shirts reading "I'm Jewcy".

2. The holy city of that religion... well, it is a holy city for three religions. If it's such a tremendous necesity for practicioners of these religions (more than 50% of the world) to go to this city at least once in their life the solution is simple: let it be of free access to any of those religions. Let it be administrated in equal parts by a Jewish council, a Muslim council and a Christian council. Period. How does this being a holy city for jews justify expelling people from their homes? If you justify that, then you better acknowledge crusades and jihad as ilegitimate wars too.

3. The premise is that all Jews were expelled from Judea and they diseminated along the Roman Empire and outside. What's the reference and evidence of that? I wonder... But hey does it make any sense? Was that a common practice by the Roman Empire? Was palestine such a special place the Pagan romans needed to empty it and perhaps move there? No. In reality the original Jews remained settled in Judea. Several thousands did leave to other places but they were a minority.

So what happened? Why are there so many jews outside palestine? What happened to those jews?

While a vast majority of the original jews remained in Palestine, judaism, the religion, did spread. It spread into Central Asia and was embraced by the Khazars (don't remember if this is teh right spelling), it spred so far as into Yemen and it spread into Africa as far as Morocco and Ethiopia (never seen a black Jew? Then you've never seen the Ethiopian jewish community!).

The Khazars were pushed by the Mongols into Russia, Poland and Eastern Europe from where they spread all over Europe (but Russia and Poland remained the core places where they inhabited). Eventually they got mixed with Germans, saxons, Slavians, Hungarians and so on. They formed what is known today as Ashkenazim, or the European Jews. They form arguably the largest Jewish group today. It's where some of my roots come from.

Most of those that spread so far as into Yemen more lately began embracing christianity and eventally Islam. But some arabic Jews remained. They're called the Mizrahim.

Several berber tribes from North Africa also embraced Judaism. Actually there was a Jewish Berber Kingdom in north Africa which is the one Arabs fought against during the Jihad for the conquest of North Africa. A great part of these Jews embraced Islam but a considerable part remained Jews under muslim rule. Together with muslims they conquered Spain and most of them settled there until the Spanish reconquest. These Jews are called the Sefardim. Many of them later left for the Ottoman Empire where they were not as repressed as in the Christian empires.

The Ethiopian jews... well... their prominence has been horribly overshadowed by Ashkenazims' prominence. Actually many Jews don't know there are jews in Ethiopia and would hardly find them "real Jews" forr they don't look white or just slightly dark.

That's why most Jews come from outside Palestine and why there is so much ethnical diversity among jews.

And what happened with the original jews that stayed in Judea? They eventually embraced Christianism and then Islam. They're known today as Palestinians.

So, taking all that into account even if Israel reasons to exist were to be considered valid, even if Zionism was to be accepted, the pillars that sustain the legitimacy of the State of Israel are fake.

So, before bitching about how righteous it is that Israel bombs the shit out of Palestinians cause of some sugar and fertilizer made rockets that have hit Israeli people with a quite small death toll (despicable but small) and with an even smaller accuracy rate, what about taking history into consideration? Even if you favour nationalism and such things.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:54 am

oligarch wrote:
At this point, I don't think any militant organization in Palestine to be responsible for the conflict, it doesn't matter what Hamas does, Israel will find some excuse to attack.
That said, any and all attacks on Israel are completely justified as Israel is the aggressor.
This is the kind of thing that makes me object to the whole 'the USA is responsible for a large amount of imperialism', or 'the US decided to bomb Iraq' kind of language. 'Israel' is just a bunch of land, it can't attack anybody. The Hamas were attacking Israeli civilians, who are not the guilty ones. Perhaps if one believes that 'Israel' was attacking Palestine, one might say they were, but that is bullshit. Presumably Iraqis are justified to kill any of the comrades here just because they live in the US?
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:25 am

Stos wrote:

This is the kind of thing that makes me object to the whole 'the USA is responsible for a large amount of imperialism', or 'the US decided to bomb Iraq' kind of language. 'Israel' is just a bunch of land, it can't attack anybody. The Hamas were attacking Israeli civilians, who are not the guilty ones. Perhaps if one believes that 'Israel' was attacking Palestine, one might say they were, but that is bullshit. Presumably Iraqis are justified to kill any of the comrades here just because they live in the US?

Completely agree.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:53 am

I don't mean to imply that every single Israeli is responsible for the actions of the Israeli governemnt and settlers, but at this point I believe that attacks on Israeli citizens are not only a justified means of resistance, but one of the only means of resistance left open by the Israeli and US governments. If American comrades were killed by acts of terrorism in the US in retaliation for the governments actions, then I would consider the governemtn responsible for their deaths.
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:57 am

oligarch wrote:
I don't mean to imply that every single Israeli is responsible for the actions of the Israeli governemnt and settlers, but at this point I believe that attacks on Israeli citizens are not only a justified means of resistance, but one of the only means of resistance left open by the Israeli and US governments. If American comrades were killed by acts of terrorism in the US in retaliation for the governments actions, then I would consider the governemtn responsible for their deaths.

I think I'd use the word "understandable" instead of "justifiable".

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:07 am

A point I wish to bring up, Zeal. Do you know WHY America and such support Isreal? You said it in your large post. Because when the Jews reoccypy the promised land the Mesiah will come. So they WANT them t have it. But do you know what the Jews aren't told? It's that when the messiah comes, which Christians believe to be Jesus, he'll kill them all. Yep. They kind of leave that out at the negotiation table. Of course the Jews don't think he's the true messiah, so it's moot to them, and THEIR messiah will "at last" come.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Stos wrote:
Not me.
I'm with the left commies on this one.

that's going into my sig
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:32 am

damn! no way.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/white.phosphorus/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:45 am

Liche wrote:
damn! no way.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/white.phosphorus/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Well I wouldn't be suprised, to be honest. Maybe they don't intend to use it to hurt people but they should be quite aware of the implications of using such a material in such a densely populated area.

Also, it's funny how there are protocols on how to lead a war... I wonder so far who has paid for the use of "illigal" weaponry? Of course, among USA's friends.

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:07 pm

It's funny (in a very sad way), this topic came on the local news the other day, and it got about 2 minutes of coverage.... There was some rally with Palestinian supporters on one side, and Israel's on the other, and the lady supporting Israel says something like 'over the past 40 years, 800 missiles have been launched at Israel, and they don't care who they're hitting'. What a fucking hypocrite. Ya, it's a tragedy that Israeli citizens have died for what their army has done, but this bitch doesn't even attempt to be objective. Usually, in fairness, the same standards apply to all sides. Obviously this doesn't apply to Israel and the US, as history has shown.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
A point I wish to bring up, Zeal. Do you know WHY America and such support Isreal? You said it in your large post. Because when the Jews reoccypy the promised land the Mesiah will come. So they WANT them t have it. But do you know what the Jews aren't told? It's that when the messiah comes, which Christians believe to be Jesus, he'll kill them all. Yep. They kind of leave that out at the negotiation table. Of course the Jews don't think he's the true messiah, so it's moot to them, and THEIR messiah will "at last" come.

It seems that this post is without reason. Who gives a crap what some spooked religious dogmatists think will happen when god's chosen people reclaim their rightful land. There's no evidence of god, so while these assholes are playing their little games, we pragmatists should be concerned with the human and ethical toll that these games are taking.

I don't think people quite grasp how serious an impact this, and other wars are having, beyond death and destruction (and even then, most people can't understand the horrors, as they've never been bombed themselves). By so flippantly waging war, we're effectively lowering the bar on the resort to force. And this is not to mention that this sort of violence will inevitably elicit more violence (Like jihadist recruits increasing after Bush's invasion of Iraq, etc. [the irony shouldn't be lost on anyone who's paying attention]).

Quote :
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/white.phosphorus/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Fuckers

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PostSubject: Re: I hope Hamas wins   Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:26 pm

Found these quotes on the phosphorous topic.

"There is no doubt that Israel is using phosphorous bombs over Gaza. Israel is flagrantly violating the Fourth Geneva Convention" - Raji Sourani, head of Palestinian Center for Human Rights

"I've been on the border for the last few days watching the Israeli artillery firing white phosphorus shells into refugee camps" - Marc Garlasco, military analyst for HRW.

And considering US-UK forces used phosphorous in Iraq, it's likely that Israel's got it, and not unlikely that they'd use it, given the US-Israeli connection: "The boss-man called partner is the US administration" (Amir Oren, Israeli political commentator, admitting that without the US, there is no occupation)

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