I hope Hamas wins

Black_Cross wrote:

It's funny (in a very sad way), this topic came on the local news the other day, and it got about 2 minutes of coverage.... There was some rally with Palestinian supporters on one side, and Israel's on the other, and the lady supporting Israel says something like 'over the past 40 years, 800 missiles have been launched at Israel, and they don't care who they're hitting'. What a fucking hypocrite. Ya, it's a tragedy that Israeli citizens have died for what their army has done, but this bitch doesn't even attempt to be objective. Usually, in fairness, the same standards apply to all sides. Obviously this doesn't apply to Israel and the US, as history has shown.

When reading the wikipedia article on this topic I saw an image of Israeli students protesting "8 long years, 7031 Qassam. When will this end?" I couldn't find it more hypocritic and even sadly funny.

The Qassam is a makeshift rocket (missile doesn't even fit for these things rarely hit their target, if ever) of which the propelant is based on fertilizer and sugar (thx for the tip!). The explosive warhead is a little IED (10-20lbs of explosives) of which the fuse is a firearm's cartridge. In contrast, many IEDs in Iraq are even from 150 to 300 lbs in weight.

I was doing some math, just for proportions, just to see to what degree were these students being hypocrites. It turns out that 7031 Qassam in 8 years equals a total delivery of about 40.9 tons of explosives, improvised I should note. That is around 28-30 lbs of explosives daily delivered to Israel, many times without even causing material damage. Before going further I want to point out that the explosive warhead of a Merkava's single HEAT round has around this payload (it's a high explosive, more powerful than the IED and in some cases heavier), also, it's accurate as hell. People at the UNRWA's school know it is.

But now, lets compare this to the air raids: In 4 minutes Israel delivered to Palestinian targets with nearly pinpoint precision more than 100 tons of destructive ordnance. Days later followed artillery barrages, tanks' shots, shelling by the navy and strikes using submarine launched cruise missiles.

To measure proportions, in two minutes Israel has delivered more destructive power to Palestine with complete accuracy than what Palestine has been able to do to Israel in 8 years. According to this, Israel has 2 million times the capacity of Palestine to deal damage, contrasting Qassams and IAF airstrikes.

The death toll has always kept at a couple dozen Palestinians per Israeli, being in this conflict around 80 Palestinians/Israeli and increasing. Probably they hope to keep this parity in peace once they make Palestinians surrender:

80 Palestinian workers for 1 Israeli burgeoise, that way 25,000 Israeli burgeoise could emerge from Wageslaving Palestinian population, that is, once Palestinians surrender and accept their possition after Israeli imperialism.

Black_Cross wrote:

It seems that this post is without reason. Who gives a crap what some spooked religious dogmatists think will happen when god's chosen people reclaim their rightful land. There's no evidence of god, so while these assholes are playing their little games, we pragmatists should be concerned with the human and ethical toll that these games are taking.

I'm pretty sure Tyrong was trying to be sarcastic and point out how religion can be a stupid excuse to wage war. If I got him right.

Black_Cross wrote:

I don't people quite grasp how serious an impact this, and other wars are having, beyond death and destruction (and even then, most people can't understand the horrors, as they've never been bombed themselves). By so flippantly waging war, we're effectively lowering the bar on the resort to force. And this is not to mention that this sort of violence will inevitably elicit more violence (Like jihadist recruits increasing after Bush's invasion of Iraq, etc. [the irony shouldn't be lost on anyone who's paying attention]).

Indeed agree.

Civilians are civilians. First, lets start of philosophocily. So now thhat palastenians have been expeled from their land 60 years ago, by the UN, not the avearge israeli CIVILIANS, now Palastein can keeeeellllll inoccent israeli civilians, who are not responisble for the government's actions. Why can palastein fire into Israel? To keel civilains, what good would that do>
More deaths, does it really matter from what side? Unless the victims are responsible for the bloodshed, then it could be understandable, but only to immobilize the fighting, not for revege. REVENGE IS NOT RIGHT. If all men are brothers, why should brothers kill brothers? Palastein should be given more land, yea that's true, and those were the offers given to palsteinians. They only wanted all of Israel, not more land. If you kill me, should my family hire a hitman to kill you?
What good will that do?Just 2 deaths, when it could have been one. Forgivennes is right, Forgive an Forget. And if you are shooting missiles into a country, targeting civilians, how does that regain your dignty? Those people should be ashamed of their actions, targeting innocent civilians. Attack the government, it was there actions! If you thereten the lives of innocent civilians, how isthat country going to react? Is it just gonna let it be shot at? no, ofo course not. The israeli government gives milions of dollars to plastein, but you know why its in this state? Beacuse that money, was found in the bank account of yassir arafat. Israel funds palastein, so don't say they don't. They want to help, but that money was stolen. And lastly, why does someone have to win or lose? Why does either Israel win or Palastein? Why can't both? Why can't they live peacefully? I fail to see how shooting missiles into a country, targeting civilians, gets you a good image, and gets you help, when your goal is to kill civilians.

Black_Cross wrote:

It's funny (in a very sad way), this topic came on the local news the other day, and it got about 2 minutes of coverage.... There was some rally with Palestinian supporters on one side, and Israel's on the other, and the lady supporting Israel says something like 'over the past 40 years, 800 missiles have been launched at Israel, and they don't care who they're hitting'. What a fucking hypocrite. Ya, it's a tragedy that Israeli citizens have died for what their army has done, but this bitch doesn't even attempt to be objective. Usually, in fairness, the same standards apply to all sides. Obviously this doesn't apply to Israel and the US, as history has shown.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

A point I wish to bring up, Zeal. Do you know WHY America and such support Isreal? You said it in your large post. Because when the Jews reoccypy the promised land the Mesiah will come. So they WANT them t have it. But do you know what the Jews aren't told? It's that when the messiah comes, which Christians believe to be Jesus, he'll kill them all. Yep. They kind of leave that out at the negotiation table. Of course the Jews don't think he's the true messiah, so it's moot to them, and THEIR messiah will "at last" come.

It seems that this post is without reason. Who gives a crap what some spooked religious dogmatists think will happen when god's chosen people reclaim their rightful land. There's no evidence of god, so while these assholes are playing their little games, we pragmatists should be concerned with the human and ethical toll that these games are taking.

I don't people quite grasp how serious an impact this, and other wars are having, beyond death and destruction (and even then, most people can't understand the horrors, as they've never been bombed themselves). By so flippantly waging war, we're effectively lowering the bar on the resort to force. And this is not to mention that this sort of violence will inevitably elicit more violence (Like jihadist recruits increasing after Bush's invasion of Iraq, etc. [the irony shouldn't be lost on anyone who's paying attention]).

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http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/white.phosphorus/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Fuckers

There is lots of evidence of god, what you said is one of the biggest mistakes everyone makes.There is. I sent an email to Richard Dawkins with lots of evidence, and the email didn't send and got deleted, and now I don't feel like writing it all over again. But trust me, there is.

alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:

There is lots of evidence of god, what you said is one of the biggest mistakes everyone makes.There is. I sent an email to Richard Dawkins with lots of evidence, and the email didn't send and got deleted, and now I don't feel like writing it all over again. But trust me, there is.

Regardless of that, it is hardly the focal point of Black_Cross's post which itself, in that specific part, probably doesn't properly adress Tyrong's.

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I'm pretty sure Tyrong was trying to be sarcastic and point out how religion can be a stupid excuse to wage war. If I got him right.

Basically, yes. That's what I meant.

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There is lots of evidence of god, what you said is one of the biggest mistakes everyone makes.There is. I sent an email to Richard Dawkins with lots of evidence, and the email didn't send and got deleted, and now I don't feel like writing it all over again. But trust me, there is.

Starting a new topic in the pantheon. Please, tell me, dude. I'd LOVE to hear it.

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Black_Cross wrote:

I don't people quite grasp how serious an impact this, and other wars are having, beyond death and destruction (and even then, most people can't understand the horrors, as they've never been bombed themselves). By so flippantly waging war, we're effectively lowering the bar on the resort to force. And this is not to mention that this sort of violence will inevitably elicit more violence (Like jihadist recruits increasing after Bush's invasion of Iraq, etc. [the irony shouldn't be lost on anyone who's paying attention]).


Indeed agree.

Same. It seems that governments just give up peace talks far too easilly. Not just now, but period. One must question the negotiators' maturity, because it all sounds like children.

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Regardless of that, it is hardly the focal point of Black_Cross's post which itself, in that specific part, probably doesn't properly adress Tyrong's.

I was just pointing out the irrelevancy. But if it was sarcastic, than i suppose it was implicitly irrelevant. My bad.

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Civilians are civilians. First, lets start of philosophocily. So now thhat palastenians have been expeled from their land 60 years ago, by the UN, not the avearge israeli CIVILIANS, now Palastein can keeeeellllll inoccent israeli civilians, who are not responisble for the government's actions. Why can palastein fire into Israel? To keel civilains, what good would that do>

I think we've covered this sufficiently, since it seems no one else has a rebuttal.

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More deaths, does it really matter from what side? Unless the victims are responsible for the bloodshed, then it could be understandable, but only to immobilize the fighting, not for revege. REVENGE IS NOT RIGHT. If all men are brothers, why should brothers kill brothers? Palastein should be given more land, yea that's true, and those were the offers given to palsteinians.

What are you talking about? US-Israel don't want a settlement, this is quite obvious. Bushwa has said it explicitly. Sharon says it with his actions. In fact, Egypt (in the 70's), Lebanon (if i recall correctly), and Hamas are all in agreement about a two-state settlement.

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They only wanted all of Israel, not more land.

Wow, the Palestinians want their homes back? Those bastards. You really think Palestine would deny a settlement to end this slaughter? They're being ethnically cleansed, and they know it. They know this won't end until they're all dead or gone. So what motivates the Palestinians to perpetuate this violence, in your opinion?

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If you kill me, should my family hire a hitman to kill you?
What good will that do?Just 2 deaths, when it could have been one. Forgivennes is right, Forgive an Forget. And if you are shooting missiles into a country, targeting civilians, how does that regain your dignty? Those people should be ashamed of their actions, targeting innocent civilians.

Ya, i think everyone is in agreement as far as the criminality of these terrorist acts. But if you want to be taken seriously, you'd try to identify the conditions that create this utterly disgusting situation, and understand why people turn to suicide bombing. Just because we speak objectively on this subject, doesn't mean we're condoning anything. We just prefer to understand 'why' instead of just condemning (which gets us absolutely nowhere in this particular instance)

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Attack the government, it was there actions! If you thereten the lives of innocent civilians, how isthat country going to react? Is it just gonna let it be shot at? no, ofo course not.

They can't get to the "government", and, as has been discussed (if you cared to read the posts prior to yours), they just can't hit it with missiles, even if they tried.

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The israeli government gives milions of dollars to plastein, but you know why its in this state? Beacuse that money, was found in the bank account of yassir arafat.

He's dead... so why wasn't this money given to the Palestinians? What excuse would you like to give on behalf of the benign, benevolent Israelis now?

Further, if the Palestinians hold the money up in the air, will it shield them from the bombs?

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Israel funds palastein, so don't say they don't. They want to help, but that money was stolen.

Then they didn't do a very good job of helping. Considering the Palestinian 'state' only has as much authority as the Israeli army gives them. This is commonly known on both sides. So if Israel really wanted to help, they could. And saying that a country who constantly bombs the civilian population of another wants to help, is like saying Bush wanted to bring democracy to Iraq.

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And lastly, why does someone have to win or lose? Why does either Israel win or Palastein? Why can't both? Why can't they live peacefully? I fail to see how shooting missiles into a country, targeting civilians, gets you a good image, and gets you help, when your goal is to kill civilians.

They both can't win because the US will not ever accept a two-state settlement, or even less a bi-cultural state.

alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:

Civilians are civilians. First, lets start of philosophocily. So now thhat palastenians have been expeled from their land 60 years ago, by the UN, not the avearge israeli CIVILIANS, now Palastein can keeeeellllll inoccent israeli civilians, who are not responisble for the government's actions. Why can palastein fire into Israel? To keel civilains, what good would that do>

I don't see how is anyone saying palestinians should or have the right to shoot missiles. That they can shoot them is as undeniable as the statement that Israel can drop 100 tons of bombs in 4 minutes.

Palestinians aren't responsible for Hamas' actions either... yet they're the ones who suffer the most. Hamas comes from Palestinian people just like the Israeli government comes from the Israeli people. If Palestinians join Hamas or other armed resistance groups it's because of what happened 60 years ago. That's the explanation.

Is this wrong? Is this right? That is absolutely subjective but to be analysed objectively it must be seen from the Palestinians' point of view too and with close attention to the facts.

They get kicked out, they get divided, they get opressed and they get slaughtered. What kind of reaction do you expect? Every single human will react differently. Many will be full with dispair and idnignation and may recur to desperate acts such as suicide bombing or random rocket launching. Others will protest, others will just kneel and beg for mercy.

The way Palestinians see it is that they got their dignity smashed and still have it so, they won't accept that status quo and won't change it towards what they think would favour Israel.

The way Palestinians see it is: They kicked us out, they chucked us in this little piece of land and isolated us, the only way to get things even is if they get kicked out. The only way to keep dignity is to keep opposing them by all means, making life as unpleasant and hard as we can for them, to fight back. We cannot just sit with arms crossed expecting Israel to magically dissapear. And why should Israel dissapear? Because it doesn't fit here, because Israel is the consumation of an invasion and a conquest of which implications are still being suffered by millions.

Palestinians are trying by all the means they can to get Israel destroyed for it implied the partial destruction of its people.

Nothing has worked for them. Nor peace talks, nor negociations, nothing. They're just furious and they express that fury hoping it will at least serve to not let Israel unhurt.

Wrong or right? Is not what I'm debating, just explaining the way Palestinians see it.

They're desperate, they're tired, they've been humiliated, they've been reduced to poverty and misery (and before you come up with the "billions" of dollars taken by Arafat take into account how capitalist economics work and realize that peoples don't thrive on charity), they've been butchered.

See it this way: A man goes to work one day, his family is at home. Then a combat jet comes in and drops a 1 ton bomb over his house. When he comes back he sees a big crater and the limbs of his beloved ones scattered around.

This man knows that when he was a baby his family was kicked out by a bunch of people that came from far away and that are the same that have engaged in several wars with people. Perhaps they've killed a neighbor, a classmate, maybe a friend or just an acquaintance already. But today, they took the lives of all his family.

Do you think you're able to put yourself in the shoes of this man and tell him how he should react? Can you even fathom what this man is going through at such a moment? And, can you imagine the consequences?

He could assimilate it and go on with his life (anyone can right?), he can just feel shattered and kill himself, he can vow to take revenge and die wanting to revenge, or he can decide to suicide and revenge at the same time. It is up to nobody but him to determine this.

Who's guilt is this? Hamas launching rockets? That's what Israelis claim but one has to wonder why the fuck are those rockets being launched? Why the fuck does Hamas exist in the first place?

And don't go just blaming the UN. The British Empire had its share of guilt, the UN (as if anyone took it seriously) had its tadbit, but who expanded Israel? Who displaced the Palestinians? I'll give you some key years for you to check and understand history there: 1947, 1948 and 1967.

Alex wrote:

More deaths, does it really matter from what side? Unless the victims are responsible for the bloodshed, then it could be understandable, but only to immobilize the fighting, not for revege. REVENGE IS NOT RIGHT.

I don't see who supports revenge here...

And be careful when using "understandable" and "justifiable", they do not mean the same. Many things are understandable but not justifiable just like the other way around.

The Palestinian reaction is completely understandable even though it is not justifiable. Even if it is considered wrong.

Alex wrote:

If all men are brothers, why should brothers kill brothers?

No. So? Read above.

Alex wrote:

Palastein should be given more land, yea that's true, and those were the offers given to palsteinians. They only wanted all of Israel, not more land.

Sorry but Israel should not exist. Even from a Zionist perspective Israel is illegitimate. How do you expect Palestinians to recognize Israel?

As Palestinians see it, the only way to even things out is by Israelis getting kicked out. Revenge? No, reversal of a condition.

As they see it: They got kicked out by Israelis so it's a 0-1 in favour of Israel, for them things won't be ok until it is a 1-1.

Alex wrote:

If you kill me, should my family hire a hitman to kill you?
What good will that do?Just 2 deaths, when it could have been one.

It could have been none in the first place. Why should I kill you and why should my family forgive you?

Alex wrote:

Forgivennes is right, Forgive an Forget.

I'll go to your home, take it by force and lock your family in a room. If I ever hear you screaming, trying to tear down the wall or break the door I'll shoot you and accuse you of not being forgiving enough.

Alex wrote:

And if you are shooting missiles into a country, targeting civilians, how does that regain your dignty? Those people should be ashamed of their actions, targeting innocent civilians.

They're not shooting missiles but rockets. What's te relevance of this? Missiles are guided, rockets are unguided. Why is this relevant? Basically these projectiles have just a flat trajectory. In the case of this kind of rockets particularily they're extremely inaccurate and short ranged. What does this mean? They can hardly target the government or, for this matter, specifically any target.

What are thy taretting? Anything within the boudnaries of the territory called Israel and, of course, within the range of their rockets.

Why would they try hitting cities? It wouldn't make much sense to target a desert given the fact they want to call attention and cause an impact within the population of Israel.

Their objective is to excert some sort of moral pressure with this and to express their fury.

How does this help them regain dignity, at least from their perspective? They are not just staying with their arms crossed accepting Israel and the whole world's indifference towards their suffering. For those who have lost a beloved one it's one of the many ways to demonstrate their pain, to not just "shut up" and be calm. It as well calls more attention that hanging a cloth reading "Israeli army killed my family".

So far they've achieved to demonstrate once more the workings of the Israeli state and once more they have achieved attention to be diverted to their problem. For many this brings the hope that eventually the world community will turn their view on Israel and will excert pressure faourable to Palestinians.

Israel's government will always search for a casus belli in any action against them and they'll use always a similar unproportioned reaction. Let the 2006 Lebanon war be remembered as a fresh example.

Alex wrote:

Attack the government, it was there actions! If you thereten the lives of innocent civilians, how isthat country going to react? Is it just gonna let it be shot at? no, ofo course not.

Probably Palestinians could say the same, except they don't have such a well protected and dispersed state.

Alex wrote:

The israeli government gives milions of dollars to plastein, but you know why its in this state? Beacuse that money, was found in the bank account of yassir arafat. Israel funds palastein, so don't say they don't. They want to help, but that money was stolen.

Peoples don't thrive on charity and dignity can't be bought. Or what do you think that some couple milliards of dollars will make Palestinian people thrive and forget what they've been going through?

Wether Yassir Arafat took it or not is absolutely irrelevant.

Alex wrote:

And lastly, why does someone have to win or lose? Why does either Israel win or Palastein? Why can't both? Why can't they live peacefully?

Because Palestinians were kicked out and don't feel like accepting the consequences of that even though they've been forced to for more than 60 years. Israeli reactions will just worsen this situation.

And Israel, even from a Zionist point of view is illegitimate, it has no reason to exist. It was a blatant conquest that now somehow Palestinians, according to you, seem to have to assimilate.

Alex wrote:

I fail to see how shooting missiles into a country, targeting civilians, gets you a good image, and gets you help, when your goal is to kill civilians.

Extensively explained above.

And please, quote just what you're going to reply to.