So what is it, alexCCCP-RUS-54321?

Quote :

There is lots of evidence of god, what you said is one of the biggest mistakes everyone makes.There is. I sent an email to Richard Dawkins with lots of evidence, and the email didn't send and got deleted, and now I don't feel like writing it all over again. But trust me, there is.

So, alexCCCP-RUS-54321? Please, tell me. I'm curious.

Huh? Im so confused right now....

So I guess that means Im curious towards what "IT" is.

Proof of God. Dude said he sent a mail to Richard Dawkins with proof, but it never got sent. I'm curious as to what he thinks is worthy of being sent to Richard Dawkins.

....no I thought he was saying he had proof that Israel used WP over Gaza.

No. I added the quote.

Proof of God you say.
I bet its that dumbass ass answer like "The mountains, the sky, the sea's etc." that shit.

No, I'm sure it's better than that, though I am curious if he thinks it's new or not. It might even be Pascal's wager.

Probably you shouldn't get your expectations so high Tyrong.

What? Pascal's Wager is too MUCH? He, he, he. I've set it low. Just hope he comes back sometime soon.

You'd be luck indeed. All I gave Zealot was a bunch of spam from the bible.


And CKX, I hate when people do that

The best way to show gods existence is too first acknowledge he might not be real. I for one believe "He" is a scientific anomaly that caused the creation of Earth, Man, the universe, dogs, cats, etc...

Liche wrote:

And CKX, I hate when people do that

I know, right!?

Its dumb!

I can still take the "You can't proof God isnt there" but that one is just shit.

Liche wrote:

I for one believe "He" is a scientific anomaly that caused the creation of Earth, Man, the universe, dogs, cats, etc...

If God exits he didn't created cars, men did, so you could say God made cars threw men, but its really not by God.

Yea every body knows Cars were created by the Devil!

Liche wrote:

Yea every body knows Cars were created by the Devil!

Dhu!
Why do so many people get hit by cars and die?
Devil did it.(overused term to explain dumb things in Bible or questions to the Bible: Devil did it)

CoolKidX wrote:

Liche wrote:

Yea every body knows Cars were created by the Devil!

Dhu!
Why do so many people get hit by cars and die?
Devil did it.(overused term to explain dumb things in Bible or questions to the Bible: Devil did it)

Actually the first recorded time some one did that was like the 1200's.

Liche wrote:

CoolKidX wrote:

Liche wrote:

Yea every body knows Cars were created by the Devil!

Dhu!
Why do so many people get hit by cars and die?
Devil did it.(overused term to explain dumb things in Bible or questions to the Bible: Devil did it)

Actually the first recorded time some one did that was like the 1200's.

Nope, it was in Rome, around 100-300 years after Jezus you know.

I wonder when he's coming back? Think I should put his name in the title? Oh, and what you described, Liche, was the deist God, essentially, which is, if you have half a brain, the only possible deity.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Oh, and what you described, Liche, was the deist God, essentially, which is, if you have half a brain, the only possible deity.

do you believe in it?

Um, no. Just because I see that as the only possibility if you ave half a brain, that does not mean that it exists. I simply say that IF God WERE to exist, that's the only possibility. But I see no reason to believe in even that, so why should I? Just in case?

I changed the title. He was on again on the 22nd, but nothing, so, yeah. Also going to PM him this. (Crosses fingers.) Here's hoping it's original!

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

I changed the title. He was on again on the 22nd, but nothing, so, yeah. Also going to PM him this. (Crosses fingers.) Here's hoping it's original!

I was checking my E-mail cuz I have lots of homework and I needed a break (110% on my 10 page reading essay!!!WOOT!!!) Anywasy, because of my Homework , I don't have much time. I won't elaborate on my ideas, but I will explain. Barely. ONLY barely. Don't expect to get all the answers from this, it doesn't even scartch the surface.

Firstly, as Einstein said, energy can only be crated, it can not be destroyed. People have energy, and, according to Einstein, that energy cannot be destroyed. That means, that according to Einstein, that energy goes somewhere. And where does it go? (rememeber, I'm rushing, I have lots of homework)

According to the bible, God did not make things happen, he manipulated Mother Nature to do so. And mother nature not bing an actually, well, mother or anything of the kind, but of nature, and nature itself. An excellent example of this is the 13 plagues. Yes there are scientific explanations for this, but that proves that the bible is even more correct.
God manipulated nature to do so. The people called for these plagues, and why did they happen at such a moment, at the riht place, and the right time?

History is very vague, ye sthat is true, but how do you know the theories about Jesus' reincarnation are not true? It is like the moon landings.If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon. You have already concluded that god is not real, although there is evidence. Much miracles, but that will not change your state of thinking.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter. Which leads us to the next point...looking at all that does exist, where did it come from?

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."You tell me how it hapenned, because not even Ricahrd Dawkins can explain, neither can Stephen Hawking.

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."

But if the law of relativity, gravity, magnetism and such are impressive, even more so is the next reason to believe God exists.

A computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billions of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.

Perhaps you've heard the example of waves coming in on a beach and creating a pattern in the sand. But then you see something written on the beach that says, "Mike loves Michelle." There is a distinct difference between random shapes created by ocean currents and a specific message obviously written by a person. The writing was very intentional and produced with thought. DNA is a complex instruction manual in every human cell, a particular sequencing of four letters which instructs the makeup of a person's body.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it. But, there's more. Not only do we see an intentional creator, but one who is very intentional toward us today.

Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."15 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."


He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you." This is God, in action.

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ.


Jeseus is history, like the moon lanfdings are history. How are they different? Its the pittance of time, the way times shades the ruth. His miracles were performed and recorded, history.


Science and God are very similar, because God created the rules that govern the universe. He crated science, and by science, that is nature, and nature is manipulated, and created by god.

There are miracles still today, people being cured of cancer WITHOUT getting any treatment. Get som objectivity guys, it will help you in your life.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Probably you shouldn't get your expectations so high Tyrong.

Why so?

First, just because energy cannot be destroyed does not mean it must be moved. It can also be changed. Circle of life type of deal.

Actually we can't even find evidence of Jews ever having been enslaved by Egypt at all. Ever. At least not in any kind of mass function. Second, no, it does not say that. It says he walked around and magically created things. That's not using nature. If you read the bible it says the universe is 6000 years old. Well, at least that's what the church calculated it as. It says it was all created magically in seven days. not nature.

WHAT evidence? Show me. I want to see this EVIDENCE, NOT an ARGUMENT. Show me ONE miracle. The Hudson? Oh, it CERTAINLY couldn't have been the years of training the pilot had. Nope. Not at all.

Your "perfection" is, well, it's stupid. I don't know about the atmosphericcontainment of the Earth, honestly. But if it was different, then... it'd be different. So? Either we'd evolve to adapt, or evolve elsewhere. Big universe.

The Earth is in an eliptical orbit. We get closer and farther. Stop looking in Aswers In Genisis, which I think doesn't even use this anymore.

It's the PERFECT distance? It's leaving, dude. Literally. Another 20,000 years and it'll be gone. Out of orbit. Launched away. It's nice to us now. and when it was closer it would have been nice then because that's all you'd know.

Water is actually NOT suited to life. At least not early life. That requires, at least it did on THIS planet THIS time, many chemicals in a gaseous state that are poisonous to us, including cyanide. The ingredient neededfor water which would have killed back then is oxygen. Fortunately back then there was very little. However as organisms became more complex they began to release gasses, including oxygen. Those that survived, did. Those that didn't joined the other 99.99% that have died out in our planet's history.

Because we've evolved to be suited to our environment.

So? Read above.

Above.

Plants have evolved to bring it up like that. I admit I don't know the mechanism, though. But I have a lot of typing to do, so I'm not researching it. Just read above.

So? I continue to fail to see your point. If we were to freese in that ice we'd die. Not very perfect now, huh? Hell, ice, which is water, causes us to die. Not perfect.

Still don't see your point. That's SEVENTY FIVE, not ninety, percentof this perfect planet we can't live on. We'll die. We can't even drink it. Not perfect. Not even smart. If it was designed, God's an idiot.

And? It's impressive, yes, but nothing that simple nautral selection can't explain.

Just like every other organism on Earth. Point?

Yes, it does explain the beginings of the eye. A simple patch of photo-sensitive cells. Yes for the brain. A group of cells centralising processes for more efficency might, and evidentally did, proove to be better. And no,e volution doesn't explain non living matter changin to living matter. It's not supposed to. That's abiogenisis. please don't say there's six different types of evolution, because thet will just make you look retaded. oh, and all those colours? It' still am iniscule portion o the light spectrum. It would be useful to see all those rare, but existing light waved that can hurt us. Like radiation. maybe int he futre. oh, and women have an advantage. They can see more into the red spectrum. Girl power.

It was actually an expansion. The term Big Bang was coined to explain the concept, which is hard for some to grasp, to the layman. And that may not be the "start", persay. It's simply as far back as we've gotten.

You're right. We can't. Doesn't mean we won't. We couldn't explain nuclear fission 100 years ago. Didn't mean we couldn't.

Uh.... Point?

Orderly? Do yo have ANY idea how many things "want" to kill us? ANd I say want in a very general term, since none of it is sentient. The inner solar system is a shooting gallery. We're loosing the moon. The sun will go nova. The Milky Way is going collide with Andromeda. We could collide with any number of supernovae or black holes as we coasst around the galaxy. And there's countless others. This is order to you? Well, I guess, if you count the nuclear fission going on inside a sun orderly. Which I don't. And if this was made by God, then, well, he's an idiot and WANTS us to die.

Who said this and in what context was it said? Forgive me, but people like you are notorious for quote mining.

(Said like Yoda.) "Love to quote mine you creationists do, yes." When one says miracle it in no way means they are nessesarily reffering to magic. Simply an odd event. Not magic. You using that means you read that into the quote. Magic, I mean.

We'll see. And if whoever is reading this is wondering, I think there's a character limit, so I'm not quoting him. Save space. Just read back and forth, keep your place. Have two windows. It's all paragraphed accurately. I hope.

Um, so? That was it? I was getting excited, too. oh, like a computer code, the DNA code can mess up. HUGELY.

Kinda. It's simplified, but acceptable. Good work.

Ah, tha "every painter has a painting" argument. Yes, but those shapes in the sand are oddities created by anoter being. Let's go with the painting. Why a painting cannot create itself. It's easier, and I've heard that one more. They're the sam argument. A painting cannot paint itself because it's made of non self-replicating chemicals. DNA is. And through mutation DNA has, over millions of years, become VERY complicated. You're right.

Intentional? Like how everybody is programmed to have cancer? And, um, i think you're misinterpreting the term infomation here. It's not like things are literally written on the genetic code. Though a signature, like "God", would be helpful. And yes, natural process DO explain it, given enough time. Tell me how they do not? Please stop using creationist websites. They only embarass you. And agin, with all the ways the genetic code can fuck up, I see no "design", at least not by anything, say, described in the bible. Or an inteligent being. Or a good one.

Thing about Jesus is, I do believe he existed. Yes. I eman, there were 100+ other messihas at the time, at least 8 of which followed the same principals (heald the sick, cured the blind, wealked on water, etc.) and Jesus, or the Hebrew translation, obviously, was a popular name at the time. However as for those others, well, Bhuddism doesn't believe in a creator God. And your point about them being teachers while Jeses said he was God's son? What, you think he wasthe only one? Seriously? Have you NEVER studied ANY ancient religion? Hell, they Egyptians had fifty!

Uh.... That in no way makes Christianity any more real than the FLying Spaghetti Monster. Especially since it's often questioned whether or not Jesus actually existed. Yeah. And quoting bible verses to an atheist who thinks that it was writted by ignorant bronze age peoples desperately trying to explain the universe? Really?

Prove even one of these things. And most of them? Magicians do them now. All hail Penn and Teller! They are Jesus' second comming! Took him long enough. They've only been saying it's iminnent for 2000 YEARS!

Loves us? You haven't read the old testament, have you?

I notice how you go from baseless arguments and incorrect information to preaching. Well, you ARE a creationist. Remember. Atheist no believy in bible. Telling em something Jesus probably never said in the first place will not convince me Christians are right.

Does Thor exist? If you want to know, then investigate the Vikings.

No he did not. No it's not. Who care? Explainable. Explanable. All religions claim this. I have no gnawing. What the fuck? You know nothing of other religions, do you?

We have records of the moon landing. For Jesus we have a 2000 year old book written 100 years after the events, passed down by word of mouth before hand, translated, copied, edited, yes edited, and translated a billion times over. Mary isn't a virgin. The original Hebrew is "Alma", which means young woman. NOT virgin. look at the history of your own faith and how the cannon of the bible came to be.

Conjecture, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, even those of other faiths. It's almost as if the cancer goes into remission WITHOUT any divine help! If Christians had a higher rate of being healed as such then you coud talk to me about that. But they don't. Almost as if there IS no force, huh?

So this was it? I hope you have better, because this was pathetic. Dawkins, the guy you were going to send this to, addresses most of this in The God Delusion. Hell, just go to my youtube channel and check some of my subscriptions. It's all been refuted a BILLION times. I knew you woudn't have anything knew. Fuck.... Here's hoping for the next guy.

And why does the word evidence seem to be heard as argument with these people? I want a burning, talking bush. ANd angel coming down. it happened all the time back then and no one's faith wavered. Hell, some even still chose to not believe. So if God really wanted to, he could keep doing this and save those he could. Becasue he did.

http://ca.youtube.com/user/tyrongkojy

alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Probably you shouldn't get your expectations so high Tyrong.

Why so?

I think you should read what I typed now.

I don't think for a second he actually beleved for an instant that anything he said would actually ever convince Richard Fucking Dawkins.

I'm aware I may be coming off as overly rude, but I mean come on. This was just insulting. I hopped for at least SOMETHING hard. Not stock shit and some preaching. THE STANDARD. God, it's like he's Kent Hovind. Wait... the numbers.... Guys? How are American prison numbers for inmates made up? Anyone know?

alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:

Why so?

Because I know you don't have evidence that god exists. That god is probable? Well, as I often argue: so long as we do not fully understand the universe every single assertion about god's existance is mere speculation. The claim of god's existance for me is as valid as of his unexistance so for me any of those beliefs is fine so long as it is not imposed on anyone. I personally want to believe god exists or at least something metaphysic and uncontrollable by men, unalterable by nature such as the soul. Do I have proof that it exists? I wouldn't say so, but neither is evidence to support the opposite so anyone can freely choose to think what he wants in regards to this.

You have claimed to have evidence that god exists. Even though I can be considered a "theistic agnostic", I know there's no evidence you can present to prove god's existance. I could expect you to come up with more or less strong arguements of why some phenomena may serve as evidence, but definitely wouldn't expect you to come up with evidence. Sadly, you even came up with something as horribly weak as the bible, a book that has been rebutted already several times.

And, actually, for some of us, one of the characteristics of concepts such as "god" and "soul" is that, precisely, they can't be controlled or understood by science inspite of existing. Based on such a concept, even if asserting that god exists, I'd assert as well that it is impossible to come up with evidence.

That's why I didn't expect you to come up with evidence. For all those reasons.

Not understanding something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or exists, it simply means we don't understand that something.

Something's existance or validity can't be proven or disproven so long as it is not fully understood.

Just as we cannot say that something that we haven't seen yet doesn't exist, we can't assert either that it exists.

Alex, really, you should do a more extensive research on history and other religions than christianism. You'll find a lot of new and useful information that will help you understand, among other things, while the bible is at best a (strange and contradictory) example of a mixture between a novel, orally transmitted legends and more. Certainly not a history book nor a historical record of civilizations.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

I'm aware I may be coming off as overly rude, but I mean come on. This was just insulting. I hopped for at least SOMETHING hard. Not stock shit and some preaching. THE STANDARD. God, it's like he's Kent Hovind. Wait... the numbers.... Guys? How are American prison numbers for inmates made up? Anyone know?

I think this kind of debate is what you've been expecting for long, so all I can say is: enjoy. Hopefully it will get better.

I was actually expecting Alex to come up with something more solid, not evidence indeed, but at least solid arguements on why some phenomena we don't understand could mean god exists. I was really dissapointed that he mentioned the bible... I mean, no serious theist even gives a fuck about the bible. Creationism has been smashed by nearly every serious thinker.

I'm actually surprised he didn't say "I used to be an atheist". Certainly I didn't expect evidence like, say, the documented instances of the eye, but I WAS hoping fo, like you said, SOME sort of argument. I mean this guy said he was going to send this to Dawkins. I was hoping he was a little harder than most. Not another Kent Hovind. Speaking of which, anyone have any info on those prison numbers? I think he might be Hovind.