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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:49 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
ok I misunderstood.

you want to stage a revolution, right.
plunging the cuntry into civil war.
and winning support of the "poor" wich don't exixt in modren cuntryes.

Matthías... you really live in a fantasy world. Get real and then argue or just stay in it and don't speak or listen to others.


----

And don't come up with that "1st world paradise" shit. If the "G7 & partners" are rich countries is because they get money from most of the world. If you got a business, money doesn't come from your own business, it comes from your clients.

And even so... please travel to US to see wether there are poor people or not in USA and go out of Iceland to see wether Europe counts with a working class or not.

we have no homeless beggers just drunks running around the center so yes I do live in a fatasy world 1#.

cuntryes buy things from other cuntryes and make it into something eles like cars and sell it to other cuntrys for a higer priz ,evrybody wins
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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:22 am

Matti. I offically declare you the most IGNORANT SONVABITCH on this entire forum! Have you even SEEN America's poor?!

About 23 million on the streets can not get a decent amount of food, nor shelter. That 1 out of every 10 people in America! I've never seen those people get sheltered by volenteer homebuilders, they instead live out in the streets like drunks! Go to Atlanta city to see what I mean.

Even at my school, many families are WAY too poor to afford the school lunches there! In my JROTC, many of the cadets see the Supply Custodian to get decent money. And he gives it to them for free!

And the US is one of the richest countries in the world...

Capitalism may have made countries RICH IN FACTS, but reality is a ENTIRE DIFFERENT THING.

Go to ANY 3rd World country to see what I mean. Hell, I'll even invite you over to my small town! Then we'll see if "capitalism succeeds"!

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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:59 am

mattabesta wrote:
ok I misunderstood.

you want to stage a revolution, right.
plunging the cuntry into civil war.
and winning support of the "poor" wich don't exixt in modren cuntryes.

40% of people in the U.S. live under the poverty line.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:06 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
oligarch wrote:
Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Communist parties should directly join the workers and concientize them instead of joining this absurd system.

The latter will lead to the former.

I think we should never join to a system we want to destroy.

We want to destroy the system because the working class is rarely represented accurately but some representation is better than none. The old strategy of not participating in government didn't work out but this program will be much more effective in building the communist and labor movements.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:30 am

mattabesta wrote:


we have no homeless beggers just drunks running around the center so yes I do live in a fatasy world 1#.

I meant fantasy world in the sense that it doesn't exist. You live in a ridiculously small country that nearly lives of North Atlantic Nations andwhich doesn't serve as an example of the majourity of teh 1st world countries.

Just as Oligarch and Jeiro pointed out, just in USA nearly 40% of the people live below the poverty line... and try telling them otherwise they live there.

Have you ver been to Greece, Spain, France or Italy? Were you perhaps blindfolded in Scotland?

Oh, and lets talk about the world. If the 1st world serves as the "rich countries" the majourity are "poor countries".


mattabesta wrote:

cuntryes buy things from other cuntryes and make it into something eles like cars and sell it to other cuntrys for a higer priz ,evrybody wins

Since cars are not a versatile "resource" the one who wins is the one that sells the car. Instead the country that couns with prime resources could actually get the technical knowledge to build cars and prescind of imported cars and even displace foreign cars.


oligarch wrote:
We want to destroy the system because the working class is rarely represented accurately but some representation is better than none.

Aside from the fact that workers are not properly respresented, my objection is that I consider these systems completely nonworkable and so should be utterly changed from their roots.

oligarch wrote:

The old strategy of not participating in government didn't work out but this program will be much more effective in building the communist and labor movements.

It didn't work not because omission of participation within the system but, among other problems, because of lack of the proper organization, settling of goals and methods.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:44 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:


oligarch wrote:
We want to destroy the system because the working class is rarely represented accurately but some representation is better than none.

Aside from the fact that workers are not properly respresented, my objection is that I consider these systems completely nonworkable and so should be utterly changed from their roots.

oligarch wrote:

The old strategy of not participating in government didn't work out but this program will be much more effective in building the communist and labor movements.

It didn't work not because omission of participation within the system but, among other problems, because of lack of the proper organization, settling of goals and methods.

However workable these systems are or are not, participating in them is the best way to expand political influence and that is why communist parties are participating in them: in order to work towards abolishing them.
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:06 am

oligarch wrote:

However workable these systems are or are not, participating in them is the best way to expand political influence and that is why communist parties are participating in them: in order to work towards abolishing them.

Something that could be seen by many as oxymoronic.

From some perspectives, including mine, that counts as a defacto recognition of those systems.

However, now that I think about it, perhaps a combination of tactics would be the best option.

But with the neceary cautions of course.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:55 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
oligarch wrote:

However workable these systems are or are not, participating in them is the best way to expand political influence and that is why communist parties are participating in them: in order to work towards abolishing them.

Something that could be seen by many as oxymoronic.

From some perspectives, including mine, that counts as a defacto recognition of those systems.

However, now that I think about it, perhaps a combination of tactics would be the best option.

But with the neceary cautions of course.

I think combined tactics are the best option as well but caution is necessary as there are some communists making too many concessions in favor of bourgeois democracy by taking part in broad coalitions with the non-Marxist left which is often either too bourgeois and neoliberal too work towards helping the workers or does not have a clear picture of what to replace global capitalism and bourgeois republics with. Italy is a prime example of this.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:11 pm

oligarch wrote:


I think combined tactics are the best option as well but caution is necessary as there are some communists making too many concessions in favor of bourgeois democracy by taking part in broad coalitions with the non-Marxist left which is often either too bourgeois and neoliberal too work towards helping the workers or does not have a clear picture of what to replace global capitalism and bourgeois republics with. Italy is a prime example of this.

In this case of use of combined tactics, those who give excesive consesions should be excluded from the party until they cease their supportiveness of capitalism.

Else, I think that in case of adopting combined tactics, we should keep workers conscious that we do not agree with the actual political system and that our participation in it is just to merely broaden our impact and our movement. That we're using it, not accepting it nor being guided by it.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:54 pm

Jeiro Sijakeuigwan wrote:
Matti. I offically declare you the most IGNORANT SONVABITCH on this entire forum! Have you even SEEN America's poor?!

About 23 million on the streets can not get a decent amount of food, nor shelter. That 1 out of every 10 people in America! I've never seen those people get sheltered by volenteer homebuilders, they instead live out in the streets like drunks! Go to Atlanta city to see what I mean.

Even at my school, many families are WAY too poor to afford the school lunches there! In my JROTC, many of the cadets see the Supply Custodian to get decent money. And he gives it to them for free!

And the US is one of the richest countries in the world...

Capitalism may have made countries RICH IN FACTS, but reality is a ENTIRE DIFFERENT THING.

Go to ANY 3rd World country to see what I mean. Hell, I'll even invite you over to my small town! Then we'll see if "capitalism succeeds"!

i AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT MY OWN CUNTRY WICH IS BTW CAPITALIST AND HAS NEARLY NO POOR
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:14 pm

mattabesta wrote:

i AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT MY OWN CUNTRY WICH IS BTW CAPITALIST AND HAS NEARLY NO POOR

Matthi, you mentioned "modern countries", "western countries". You didn't say "Iceland".
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:37 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

i AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT MY OWN CUNTRY WICH IS BTW CAPITALIST AND HAS NEARLY NO POOR

Matthi, you mentioned "modern countries", "western countries". You didn't say "Iceland".

A measure of relative poverty defines "poverty" as being below some relative poverty threshold. An example is when poverty is defined as households who earn less than 50% of the median income is a measure of relative poverty. Notice that if everyone's real income in an economy increases, but the income distribution stays the same, relative poverty will also stay the same.

Relative poverty measurements can produce odd results in small or unusual populations. For example, if the median household in a wealthy neighborhood earns US$1 million each year, then a family which earns US$100,000 would be considered poor on the relative poverty scale. At the other end of the scale, if the median household in a very poor neighborhood earned only 50% of what it needs to buy food, then a person who earned that amount would not be considered poor on a relative poverty scale, even though the person is clearly poor on an absolute poverty scale.

Measures of relative poverty are almost the same as measuring inequality: If a society gets a more equal income distribution, relative poverty will fall. Following this, some argue that the term 'Relative Poverty' is itself misleading and that 'Inequality' should be used instead. They point out that if society changed in a way that hurt high earners more than low ones, then 'relative poverty' would decrease, but every citizen of the society would be worse off. Likewise in the reverse direction: it is possible to reduce absolute poverty while increasing relative poverty.

The phrase relative poverty can also be used in a different sense to mean "moderate poverty" – for example, a standard of living or level of income that is high enough to satisfy basic needs (like water, food, clothing, shelter, and basic health care), but still significantly lower than that of the majority of the population under consideration.

you are all talking about this right?
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:43 pm

mattabesta wrote:

you are all talking about this right?

Nope.

We're all talking about the poverty line which has nothing to do with relative poverty.

When you are below the poverty line, no matter what country you live in, it means you live poorly by all possible standards: have few food, have poor or no shelter at all, have poor to no access to health facilities, etc.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:56 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

you are all talking about this right?

Nope.

We're all talking about the poverty line which has nothing to do with relative poverty.

When you are below the poverty line, no matter what country you live in, it means you live poorly by all possible standards: have few food, have poor or no shelter at all, have poor to no access to health facilities, etc.

ohhhhhh

sorry I have no visual sight of this thing so I must withdraw from this topic.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:11 am

mattabesta wrote:

ohhhhhh

sorry I have no visual sight of this thing so I must withdraw from this topic.

Wisest decision you've ever taken here: To ackowledge you don't have anything to sustain your arguements with and withdraw because of that. Good.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:39 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

ohhhhhh

sorry I have no visual sight of this thing so I must withdraw from this topic.

Wisest decision you've ever taken here: To ackowledge you don't have anything to sustain your arguements with and withdraw because of that. Good.

no I just don't know what you are talking about so there is no argument.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:22 am

mattabesta wrote:
Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

ohhhhhh


Wisest decision you've ever taken here: To ackowledge you don't have anything to sustain your arguements with and withdraw because of that. Good.

no I just don't know what you are talking about so there is no argument.

I'm not seeing a difference.
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:59 pm

oligarch wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

ohhhhhh


Wisest decision you've ever taken here: To ackowledge you don't have anything to sustain your arguements with and withdraw because of that. Good.

no I just don't know what you are talking about so there is no argument.

I'm not seeing a difference.

I have no argument so how can I continue?
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:32 am

mattabesta wrote:
oligarch wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

ohhhhhh


Wisest decision you've ever taken here: To ackowledge you don't have anything to sustain your arguements with and withdraw because of that. Good.

no I just don't know what you are talking about so there is no argument.

I'm not seeing a difference.

I have no argument so how can I continue?

Exactly, how does that differ from what Zealot said?
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:34 am

oligarch wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
oligarch wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

ohhhhhh


Wisest decision you've ever taken here: To ackowledge you don't have anything to sustain your arguements with and withdraw because of that. Good.

no I just don't know what you are talking about so there is no argument.

I'm not seeing a difference.

I have no argument so how can I continue?

Exactly, how does that differ from what Zealot said?

he said I had no oh just skip it keep on talking.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:40 am

mattabesta wrote:
oligarch wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
oligarch wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

ohhhhhh


Wisest decision you've ever taken here: To ackowledge you don't have anything to sustain your arguements with and withdraw because of that. Good.

no I just don't know what you are talking about so there is no argument.

I'm not seeing a difference.

I have no argument so how can I continue?

Exactly, how does that differ from what Zealot said?

he said I had no oh just skip it keep on talking.

Oh, alright the. It's true that so called "communists" who make to many concessions to the bourgeoisie should be excluded from the party but again, as in Italy this was not possible as the controlled too large of a block and true communists were forced to break off and found another party. The only way to exclude bourgeois socialists in a situation like that is of the party operates on a Stalinist model but all true communist parties should operate an a Trotskyist model.
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:28 pm

C-C-Combo breaker..watch the quotes.
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:29 pm

You're missing a C. Thats why I use FROSTED BUTTS now. Sorry for off topic.
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:50 pm

oligarch wrote:


Oh, alright the. It's true that so called "communists" who make to many concessions to the bourgeoisie should be excluded from the party but again, as in Italy this was not possible as the controlled too large of a block and true communists were forced to break off and found another party. The only way to exclude bourgeois socialists in a situation like that is of the party operates on a Stalinist model but all true communist parties should operate an a Trotskyist model.

Well, I think eclectic modes of operation work better. Take the best out of each model and add your own.
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Kenzu
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PostSubject: Re: New program for Communist Parties   Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:12 pm

Eurocommunism is a similiar movement, equally progressive which was developed in the late 20th century, as an alternative to soviet system.
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