So I Came to the conclusion

That all Nationalism is bad, it just creates hatred, and a complex of superiority. Ive actually realized this on videos, when I see people blaming things on individual countries rather than on corrupt society it self. Also, another prime example of Nationalism is our dear friend Alex, who strongly believes Russia is the best and all other Nations tremble at its wake!

Yeah, nationalism istn very good, I like patriotism more.
But not the US one for a reason.

And omfg its so true, when you say Mr.Alex thinks like that, HA! And he thinks he is a commie, my guess becuz he's only from Russia(or his dad).

conservatism is almost worse

Tyrlop wrote:

conservatism is almost worse

Yeah, social conservatism, like no gay maarridage and all.
But furhter its not that bad.

Yeah, we know. Thi is obvious simply by looking at history.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Yeah, we know. Thi is obvious simply by looking at history.

But that doesnt mean it fails, like everytime, look at communism, every atempt to it failed, and then it isnt real communism, maybe they wanted real communism but couldnt and got state framwork.

I'd say we would have to define nationalism. In this context I'm understanding it from a perspective in which the nationalist considers his nation to be superior to all others and thus deserving of the right to exploit/dominate them and/or annihilate them. In that sense, I agree, nationalism can't b e positive at all.

I believe there's another possible interpretation of nationalism that may go hand in hand with the previous: when nationalism implies total "loyalty" and allegiance to a determinate state for example to a certain monarchy. This is when that state is cosidered by the nationalist as an important part of the nation. An example of this could be the Russian Monarchists who believe Tsarism and submission to it be an important part of the Russian National Identity. This stems even from the defacto condition in which the nation is represented merely by the state and another ruling class if present (namely the bourgeoisie andor religious elites where present) and the people is nothing but a stockpile economic and military resources.

Often nationalism is confused with patriotism which is nothing but the love to the nation where you were born, the nation being he territory, the culture or cultures that developed within it, its people etc. without considering it superior or deserving of hegemony. This patriotism may lead even to solidary internationalism since the patriot will identify himself with patriots from other nations.

I personally believe that any patriot ought to be socialist in order to be congruent as I don't conceive how anyone could consider that the integrity of their nation is being respected within a framework of exploitation and, in the case of capitalist exploitative systems, I don't conceive how any patriot could defend a system that puts profit way above cultural, collective and thus national integrity aside from the mere condition of exploitation.

CoolKidX wrote:

But that doesnt mean it fails, like everytime, look at communism, every atempt to it failed, and then it isnt real communism, maybe they wanted real communism but couldnt and got state framwork.

Transexuals attempt to be women - they can't be women, they're men intrinsicly regardless of all their mindset, Sex-reassignment surgery and the loads of estrogen they take. No matter what they do, their endocryne system is male. So happens with movements that are intrinsicly capitalist and statist but that embrace socialist paraphernalia, names and even claimed objectives.

nationalism is the tool that capitalism uses to convince their people to go to war. if the people don't want war, then you give them this medicin, example world war one, capitalists gave most of Europe nationalistic Doses, to make them fight Each other. after the russian revolution they tried to give germany and most eastern european countries this doses again to make them fight the soviet union, but they gave to much to poor little germany, and because it was weak, the nationalism toke over and was then incontrolable by the capitalists.

Tyrlop wrote:

nationalism is the tool that capitalism uses to convince their people to go to war.

No, there are several other reasons to convince people to wage war other than nationalism, the Iraq War being a magnificent example - people have been convinced by a wide array of reasons ranging from the falsely based sense of personal security product of the massive paranoia campaigns by the US government to the false notion that they are freeing an oppressed population, product of sheer ignorance and heavy propaganda campaigns.

Nationalism, in wars such as the Iraq War, played a minor role in the form of guys that honestly (thanks to ignorance and media-fueled paranoia) thought Iraq was a threat to their nation, to those that cynically acknowledged that they consider US has the right to have control over Iraq and exploit it. This is the kind of image US didn't want to have projected - they wanted the whole intervention to look like a benefic act of solidarity with the suffering Iraqi people while helping preserve world peace.

Capitalists nowadays appeal much more to the illusion of welbeing and nice life standards to be threattened by X entity - it's gone far beyond nationalism. And actually, nowadays capitalists themselves have discovered that nationalism tends to be a hindrance to them as nationalistic movements oppose globalization and thus the growth and strengthening of the international bourgeoisie.

yes thats right. but many parties still appeal to nationalism. and nationalism exploded in the eastern europe after world war one, many nationalistic movements and parties where born, like in poland for example.

Tyrlop wrote:

yes thats right. but many parties still appeal to nationalism. and nationalism exploded in the eastern europe after world war one, many nationalistic movements and parties where born, like in poland for example.

Nationalism is used to promote nationalize...thats basically its whole point.

i would take nationalism and conservationsim over creationalism any day
whose with me.

nice conclusion liche

enviro wrote:

i would take nationalism and conservationsim over creationalism any day
whose with me.

Amen to that.
Get it?
Amen..

Tyrlop wrote:

yes thats right. but many parties still appeal to nationalism. and nationalism exploded in the eastern europe after world war one, many nationalistic movements and parties where born, like in poland for example.

Because they sought independece from Prussia, Russia and Austro-Hungary.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Tyrlop wrote:

yes thats right. but many parties still appeal to nationalism. and nationalism exploded in the eastern europe after world war one, many nationalistic movements and parties where born, like in poland for example.

Because they sought independece from Prussia, Russia and Austro-Hungary.

yes!!!!!!! a new nation needs alot of nationalism to speed up the work. the polish army toke over the german left-overs from world war one weapons and uniforms. look at the kar98 i think its the same. also latvia, finland, and all surrounding countries, they where afraid of soviet invasion. look at georgia today, and russia today, iran(yay iran elections). america also got alot of nationalism, or patriotism, what is the diffrence again?

Tyrlop wrote:

yes!!!!!!! a new nation needs alot of nationalism to speed up the work.

Not really, all you require is national and cultural identities and patriotism.

Tyrlop wrote:

finland, and all surrounding countries, they where afraid of soviet invasion.

Several surrounding countries actually got their independence from Russia.

Tyrlop wrote:

look at georgia today, and russia today,

Huh? I call that prometeism.

Tyrlop wrote:

iran(yay iran elections).

What.

Tyrlop wrote:

america also got alot of nationalism, or patriotism, what is the diffrence again?

Read my first post in this thread.

[Start Nationalistic Rant]

It is up to us Americans, to tell people what they can do. Because if not,
they're gonna live like heathens. Those foreigners don't bathe as often as we do! Left to their own devices, they're gonna
eat their own c...shit! You know, they're gonna have sex with their daughters!
We gotta tell them what to do, and what to listen to, otherwise, we're
gonna be screwed. We're gonna be screwed. We want order, America! You hear me?

And also, we don't need some liberal puppet on public television to teach our children how to count. OK, there's only three numbers I care about, and that is 3-2-1-Launch, OK? And
that is what I like to hear, right before we send a missile cock into some
asshole country's mouth. All right? Now, if I need my kids to be taught
tolerance? You know, sometimes it's a dirty word in my household, tolerance.
I'll tolerate them fighting, OK? That is what I'll tolerate. I don't need
them to learn about life, from puppets, OK? You don't learn anything
from anybody that likes having a hand put up their ass. The only puppet I
like is the President.

You know what really concerns me about America? The educational
system. First of all, the liberals are making our children learn things like
geography. Who cares where the terrorists come from? If our children know bout other countries, there's less time teaching them about American
superiority. We don't need geography to kill terrorists!

Public education is another lie. You see it in the bunk they're teaching
as science. Now, science is good, when it teaches you how to turn a million
ungrateful foreigners into glass. That, I'm givin' a thumbs up to, OK? That's
a great discovery. But don't tell me that anything that I do causes a problem. I don't want to hear that. 'Cause YOU'RE the problem! You know why? Because this is the land of the free, not the land of the free lunches for minorities, OK? I don't care if they ARE the ones servin' it. They shouldn't get it for free.[/rant]