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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:27 am

You guys think there should be one or not?
I think not, but some guy told me that if someone give's him a blue eye, he punches him back. Sure, anyone would do that right?
But if someone kills someone, does he deserve to be killed to?
I mean its like lowering yourself to the killer, but still.
"An eye for a eye, and a teeth for a teeth"
If I said that correctly.

So I am not sure..
What about y'all?

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:26 am

Absolutely unnecesary:

1. It doesn't prevent new muders/rapes/whatever they're supposed to be punishment for.

2. People more often than not have reasons for their actions, unless you suppress the need to commit a certain action it will still happen. Want murders and rapes to stop or at least diminish? Make society less hostile. Want people to stop stealing? Eliminate the condition that allows for people to live within precarious material conditions; eliminate exploitation.

3. The punishment won't heal the damage commited by the perpetrator.

4. No institution has the legitimate faculty to determine whether a human being deserves to live or die.

5. People develop in accordance to what surrounds them. The individual is forged by the collective. If within a collective there is a high incidence of theft, murders and rapes it means that the collective is flawed.

Death penalty for murder is equivalent to two deaths at the price of one.

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carmen510
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:27 am

Death Penalty is as immoral as the crime it was designed to punish, if not even more.

In the US, the death penalty is assigned only to murders of the most gruesome kind. I shall explain why the death penalty is an insufficient deterrent to this crime:

1. Murders for profit: This means murder for money and such. This type of murder is considered very rationally, and the suspects would have to have a good chance of escaping justice in this case. Thus, insufficient deterrent.

2. Murders for Passion: This encompasses murders done due to human emotion. If you hate your husband so much that you want to kill him, no punishment would likely be enough to stop you.
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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:30 am

Thank you both for bringing great arguments.

But to Carmen, what about murder threw racisim? Is that passion to?

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:32 am

CoolKidX wrote:
Thank you both for bringing great arguments.

But to Carmen, what about murder threw racisim? Is that passion to?

It most likely would be. You hate this certain people so much, you want to kill them. Is retribution likely to stop you, particularly since most racist murderers are uneducated?
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:39 am

Punishments are deficient deterrants specially when perpetrators make things either in such a way that they believe they won't get caught whatever the punishment is or they simply don't care. Just like carmen pointed out.

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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:50 am

Okay, so we got the arguments why it shouldn't be there for the reason to scare people off. But what about "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"?
Like the victim's family wants the murderer who killed their family member to die aswell.

But with that saying I want to add a quote from Martin Luther King which I saw,"An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind", which was inspired by Ghandi: An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."(Just a side note)

But still, got any arguments against that?

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:14 am

Sure. It's absolutely irrational. It won't bring their loved one back, it won't have any psychological impact on the perpetrator (since he'll be dead) and the community will just lose another member.

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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:23 am

There's no reason for it. Yes, it prevents them from commiting a crime again, but so does a life snetence. And one day they may be rehabilitated. Or research may be done, thus preventing the same kind of issues other people may have that may make them comit such crimes. What's more, if there's the chance you got the wrong guy, and over 100 people have been released since the advent of genetics because they were in fact innocent, well, you just killed an innocent guy. Nice job, justice system. OR the prosecuters may have withheld evidence to get a conviction. This happened just a couple years ago, were the Feds back in the 70s witheheld evidence to get a conviction. Turns out, the dude didn't do it!

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:43 am

Really, it's all theorical, i wish they would bring it back to Canada.

Let me explain before going bananas.

In Canada, Justice is a comedy, rapers and murderers go out after 3 years of prison. And most of the time, they re-do the same type of crimes. It's unbarable. A friend of mine, has a rich attorney in his family, and he told him that, over here, they release prisoners sooner, because every time they re-do theyr trial, the attorneys get money from the government, because the accused can't pay theyr lawyers. So they keep releasing and re-releasing prisoners that shouldn't be. As for Pedophiles and Rapers, this crime should be punished by DEATH, none the less, no crime is more horrible than this, it destroy lives, and mostly of innocent girls. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BY ANY MEANS.

And yes, it greatly might prevent it. Since a great percentages of rapes and cases of pedophilia, are planned, and come from a family member or close persons. So they might think twice about it, if they get sentenced for Death, instead of a stupid 2 years of prison.

Of course they get the shit beat out of them in prison, but thats not enough. (Know some people that went to prison, and they say, Rapers, especially pedophiles, get a big rough time.)

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:49 am

Death penalty just motivates criminals to get smarter and take steps to provent themselves from being caught. And then there are somepeople who just dont care and have nothing to lose.

The only thing the death penalty dosnt do is prevent crime.
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:50 am

comrade110397 wrote:
Death penalty just motivates criminals to get smarter and take steps to provent themselves from being caught. And then there are somepeople who just dont care and have nothing to lose.

The only thing the death penalty dosnt do is prevent crime.

LoL... like it makes them less caughtable... and like it at 100% doenst prevent them... from where the fuck do you get those facts?

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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:35 pm

Jesus wrote:
Really, it's all theorical, i wish they would bring it back to Canada.

Let me explain before going bananas.

In Canada, Justice is a comedy, rapers and murderers go out after 3 years of prison. And most of the time, they re-do the same type of crimes. It's unbarable. A friend of mine, has a rich attorney in his family, and he told him that, over here, they release prisoners sooner, because every time they re-do theyr trial, the attorneys get money from the government, because the accused can't pay theyr lawyers. So they keep releasing and re-releasing prisoners that shouldn't be. As for Pedophiles and Rapers, this crime should be punished by DEATH, none the less, no crime is more horrible than this, it destroy lives, and mostly of innocent girls. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BY ANY MEANS.

And yes, it greatly might prevent it. Since a great percentages of rapes and cases of pedophilia, are planned, and come from a family member or close persons. So they might think twice about it, if they get sentenced for Death, instead of a stupid 2 years of prison.

Of course they get the shit beat out of them in prison, but thats not enough. (Know some people that went to prison, and they say, Rapers, especially pedophiles, get a big rough time.)

That sucks to hear in Canada, but you might just need higher punishments for people, like stay in jail longer. Reform taht shit, cause I am suprised a Conservative Party leading Canada doesnt have higher Law and Justice punihsments.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:56 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
There's no reason for it. Yes, it prevents them from commiting a crime again, but so does a life snetence. And one day they may be rehabilitated. Or research may be done, thus preventing the same kind of issues other people may have that may make them comit such crimes.

The reason for most crimes is not a mystery science has not unveiled. For many life is hell either materially, emotionally or both and so long as the conditions allowing people to live under said circumstances do not disappear, crimes will still be there in the same numbers they are and with a great potential to increase.

As for things in Canada, Jesus, the concerns you express could be easily dealt by life sentences or internship in mental facilities for life or until somehow the perpetrators are deprived of their destructive drives (what you adress is most often product of a certain mental disorder).

When people commit actions such as raping an infant in the family, again, they don't think about the implications and, in many cases, might just be confident enough to avoid the implications imposed by the state. Else, there's an important problem here - if they are put under enough psychological pressure in order to suffice those sexual drives, that is, knowing that teh punishment is so severe, they'll just have a greater urge to get rid of the evidence which means they'll consider leaving no witnesses of their actions.

Such sentences, as comrade110397 mentioned, do demand from the criminal to better plan his crimes, to make them more elaborate and carefully for he requires to suffice a need and the requirements to do so have just increased.

If you have to eat you won't stop trying to eat just because you have obstacles, you'll try to overcome them in order to eat. Same happens with crimes, most often they're a product of an individual's need to overcome an obstacle to fulfill a need.

The problem is not whether people comit crime or not, teh problem is why do they comit it? What possible reasons are behind a persons well elaborated scheme to break into a house in order to steal some stuff? What reasons are behind some grandpa's will to rape his granddaughter? What are the most common causes for murder?

Once you understand the origin of the problems, you can solve them or get close to their solution (considering some may be impossible to resolve). If you want a weed to stop growing you don't cut its leaves or its stem.... you jank it off the ground from the very roots.

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Jesus
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:13 pm

We Chemically Castrate them, simple. They technically still have theyr bawls, but they don't feel like raping anyone, cuz the hormones are gone. Well in some cases, it must be a deeper mental problem. But those, should be either solved, or if in no hope of being restored. Simply Killed. No Reason to let him live, if he can't solve the problem, well, he's gonna past the rest of his life in prison, getting the shit beat out of him? Nah, sometimes the death penalty = Mercy.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:01 pm

Well Im not particularly against it, but Im not really for it either. I think its more understandable for like a serial rapist than a guy that killed 1 guy, but then again thats probably just the way I was raised. Which brings me to my next point, someone raised in an ultra conservative family who thinks like money is the key too happiness and Humans are superior to all other life forms on earth, and that some one who steals from a bank is stealing from them, is more likely to be for Death Penalty then some one from a Liberal Hippy family, were all lifeforms play an equal part on this earth and that the balance shouldnt be broken.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:14 pm

Having him in a mental facility with mental treatments is far more merciful than torturing a human being with a death sentence.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:45 pm

First, the justice system in Canda does NOT cuck that badly. A rapist will not get 2 years, dude, in most any country. They get approx 20-25, I think. Now, parole is a different story.

As for the death penalty, WHAT if they're innocent? You just killed an innocent man. And there's nothing a life sentence, which we have and use, won't hurt. Your view of the Canadian justice system is grosly misinformed. IF such assinine penalties are brought forth, they are likely from a corrupt judge, which is a different issue. I have NEVER seen a rapist or murderer get less than 15 years, unless they themselves diesst commit the crime, and were simply acessories.

And if you first commit to the death penalty, you first must say it is opkay to kill another human being. Not in the right circumstances, not only if there's beyond any shadow of a doubt, you MUST say it's okay to kill another human being. Because shadow of a doubt or no, I know there have been at least 100, I know the number's higher, that have been released because it turns out they were inocent. SO there IS no beyond a shadow of a doubt we can't be wrong, but cause you CAN,, and HAVE been wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:23 pm

Quote :
Okay, so we got the arguments why it shouldn't be there for the reason to scare people off. But what about "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"?
Like the victim's family wants the murderer who killed their family member to die aswell.

Realistically, merely having the death penalty as an option for punishment promotes the idea that revenge and homocide is acceptable to society by and large, or worse yet, that it is a healthy means by which to mend the wounds of losing a loved one. Further, it promotes vigilante 'justice', which serves no one.

And if it isn't clear, to answer the OPs question, i never support the death penalty. Just more senseless violence.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:25 am

Jesus, I guess Tyrong's approach to how the Canadian justice system works is far more realistic. Not like you had a good reason to support death penalty, though.


And as both Tyrong and BC say, to support Death Penalty means to accept the idea of killing another human being, the very same conduct one claims to be rejecting. Accepting Death penalty is a way to promote murder initself. A collective that accepts death penalty is a collective that somehow is ok with the idea of human beings killing other human beings whatever the reason whatever the circumstances.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:34 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
First, the justice system in Canda does NOT cuck that badly. A rapist will not get 2 years, dude, in most any country. They get approx 20-25, I think. Now, parole is a different story.

As for the death penalty, WHAT if they're innocent? You just killed an innocent man. And there's nothing a life sentence, which we have and use, won't hurt. Your view of the Canadian justice system is grosly misinformed. IF such assinine penalties are brought forth, they are likely from a corrupt judge, which is a different issue. I have NEVER seen a rapist or murderer get less than 15 years, unless they themselves diesst commit the crime, and were simply acessories.

And if you first commit to the death penalty, you first must say it is opkay to kill another human being. Not in the right circumstances, not only if there's beyond any shadow of a doubt, you MUST say it's okay to kill another human being. Because shadow of a doubt or no, I know there have been at least 100, I know the number's higher, that have been released because it turns out they were inocent. SO there IS no beyond a shadow of a doubt we can't be wrong, but cause you CAN,, and HAVE been wrong.

Ever heard of Guy Cloutier? The guy got 3 years. Yes Most of the time they get a larger sentence, but they get conditionial liberation, after yes MOST OF THE TIME, 3-4 years. And they at a great percentage get it. Even if they'r still dangerous. Do you have any relatives, in the Justice System? If no, then from what do you get those?

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:19 am

The Guy Cloutier case, so far as I\'ve read, is not representative of how most rapes occur. Plus he pleaded guilty which, in most legals systems of the world, tends to gain liniency from the court.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:35 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
The Guy Cloutier case, so far as I've read, is not representative of how most rapes occur. Plus he pleaded guilty which, in most legals systems of the world, tends to gain liniency from the court.
'

Doesn't make the crime, less atrocious, or make him less sick.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:38 am

Quote :
Ever heard of Guy Cloutier?
You mean the celebrity who NEVER get long sentences?

Quote :
The guy got 3 years
As Zeal said, he pleaded guilty.

Quote :
but they get conditionial liberation, after yes MOST OF THE TIME, 3-4 years.
In other words parole? Yeah. They do that in the justice system. They also review the cases. MOST of those released DON'T reoffend.

Quote :
Even if they'r still dangerous.
Quite debateable. My point being that even a THEIF can trick the parole board. Or, once they get out, they have th INTENTION of going good, but end up through circumstances going back into their old ways. As for rape, that's usually for other, mental reasons. In Guy's case it was likely a control thing. VERY common in, for examply, the military. S by your definition, we shouldn't have parole at all. Which some would agree with, and honestly I have no opinion either way on that.


Quote :
Do you have any relatives, in the Justice System?
Nope, but military. My cousin. He's seen this shit, the control rape case, there a few times.

Quote :
If no, then from what do you get those
What?

Quote :
Doesn't make the crime, less atrocious, or make him less sick.
No one's denying that.

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PostSubject: Re: Death penalty   Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:48 am

Well then... The good way is chemical castration right...? (For Rapers i mean)

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