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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:23 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Liche wrote:
And, correct me if Im wrong, he never worked for it either, he just inherited it from his dad family.

Like most cappies.

To be honest, all of em inherit it from the labor that preceded their existence (or preceded their cappie-ness). In reality, to say they 'worked' for any of it is just wrong, since 'work' adds value to society, their positions in society do not. At most i think you could say they 'tried hard' for it (which then, incidentally, becomes their excuse to not work -- or contribute value to society -- but still retrieve so much value from society, whether or not that fucks with the basic function of the economy).

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:40 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Liche wrote:
And, correct me if Im wrong, he never worked for it either, he just inherited it from his dad family.

Like most cappies.

Correct me if i'm wrong... but ain't that's what you doing?

Aren't you like, living off your parents doing nothing?

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:43 pm

Black_Cross wrote:


To be honest, all of em inherit it from the labor that preceded their existence (or preceded their cappie-ness). In reality, to say they 'worked' for any of it is just wrong, since 'work' adds value to society, their positions in society do not. At most i think you could say they 'tried hard' for it (which then, incidentally, becomes their excuse to not work -- or contribute value to society -- but still retrieve so much value from society, whether or not that fucks with the basic function of the economy).

This is true. However, within capitalist cultural hegemony, people tend to think "if we worked hard and saved money and bought property with which they exploit workers, then, they earned they right to exploit workers and stop wroking themselves". However, to many, and again within capitalist cultural hegemony, managing human resources, money and negotiating are equivalent to work, arguably more valuable than that of the workers that actually do contribute to economy.

Jesus wrote:
Correct me if i'm wrong... but ain't that's what you doing?

Aren't you like, living off your parents doing nothing?

I'm living off my mother because so she wants. Technically I'm sufficing her needs. She has requested me not to work and to focus on studying instead. I'm exchanging my service as a student (which satisfies my mothers' needs) for manutention.

Plus, when did I not say that I was living off my mother's incomes? Actually how does your question adress any point in here?

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:50 pm

Jesus wrote:
Correct me if i'm wrong... but ain't that's what you doing?

Aren't you like, living off your parents doing nothing?

Quote :
I'm living off my mother because so she wants. Technically I'm sufficing her needs. She has requested me not to work and to focus on studying instead. I'm exchanging my service as a student (which satisfies my mothers' needs) for manutention.

Plus, when did I not say that I was living off my mother's incomes? Actually how does your question adress any point in here?


Well, that basically, you do the same shit that Batman does.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:54 pm

Jesus wrote:



Well, that basically, you do the same shit that Batman does.


Dress in a leotard and beat the crap out of "criminals" at nights with the resources provided me by the exploitation of thousands of workers? Nope, definitely not.

Also, I never said I did not belong to the same social class as batman so I don't see your point.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:01 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Jesus wrote:



Well, that basically, you do the same shit that Batman does.


Dress in a leotard and beat the crap out of "criminals" at nights with the resources provided me by the exploitation of thousands of workers? Nope, definitely not.

Also, I never said I did not belong to the same social class as batman so I don't see your point.

Well, idk, fact, you hate batman, for things that you have in common with him. So anyway, well yeah, he still saved the city a ''X'' number of times. Not like he saved no one. And it's not like he wasn't risking his life. (I mean... Superman is just invincible)

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:12 pm

Jesus wrote:


Well, idk, fact, you hate batman, for things that you have in common with him.

1. The only thing we have in common is the social class, and that not even in proportion.
2. He uses his resources to beat the crap of those who are criminals due to the same condition that allowed Wayne to be so rich.
3. I hate him for the previously mentioned things and for the fact that he's considered such a superhero inspite of being comparatively a wimp without intrinsic powers and whose condition of superhero relies entirely on the exploitation of workers.

Jesus wrote:

So anyway, well yeah, he still saved the city a ''X'' number of times. Not like he saved no one.

Conveniently being disregarded the fact that he himself is a problem to the city and forms part of the genus of most of the community's problems.

Obviously he was doing his part to protect the status quo.

Jesus wrote:

And it's not like he wasn't risking his life. (I mean... Superman is just invincible)

Aside from an entrepeneur, he's also a revengeful adventurer that wants to take an active role in the protection of the status quo.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:20 pm

I like Freakazoid.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:22 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
I like Freakazoid.

When I was 8 years old me and my best friend at school invented a game based on Freakazoid. Freakazoid rulzors.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:23 pm

I like Iceman. And the ''Let's piss off Wolverine'' gang

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:26 pm

But no one beats Dr. Manhattan!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:26 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
But no one beats Dr. Manhattan!!!!

Batman does, cause he can buy him.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:29 pm

Jesus wrote:


Batman does, cause he can buy him.

You obviously didn't read Watchmen and don't know who Dr. Manhattan is.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:30 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Jesus wrote:


Batman does, cause he can buy him.

You obviously didn't read Watchmen and don't know who Dr. Manhattan is.

Yah, my half-bro has the comic books, so i'l loan 'em to see what the big fuzz's about.

But John can give you cancer, and turn into a car, so he wins.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:37 pm

Jesus wrote:


Yah, my half-bro has the comic books, so i'l loan 'em to see what the big fuzz's about.


Yup you do that.

Jesus wrote:

But John can give you cancer, and turn into a car, so he wins.

This is hilarious once you know well what JOhn stands for.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:27 pm

Jesus wrote:


But John can give you cancer, and turn into a car, so he wins.

That is REALLY an understatement, these are just the side effects of what he dose.
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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:33 pm

Jesus wrote:

But John can give you cancer, and turn into a car, so he wins.
and go to mars and make clocks.
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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:11 pm

Liche wrote:
Jesus wrote:


But John can give you cancer, and turn into a car, so he wins.

That is REALLY an understatement, these are just the side effects of what he dose.
]

Refering to the newgrounds animation, by happyharry

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:39 pm

Quote :
Surely he extracted every single material since its prime form.
Huh?

Quote :
Sure, he probably also made the machinery nd extracted the prime resources and whatever he bought he probably did with money he earned himself without profiting from workers.
If you're whining about if he minned the metal himself, the n I say the same to you. Did YOU? He bought the shit himself. Yes he profitted, but if you actually look at the man's business pracises, though he owns the company he does MUCH of the work himself. Again, he doesn't sit there doing nothing. He WORKS. A LOT.

Quote :
I hate him because his only superpower is that of exploitation and negotiating with other exploitators.
Seriously, you only want to ahte him because he's rich. Gotta say dude, you're pretty fundie about this subject. He doesn't exploit. He pays VERY fairly, has a LOVELY benifit plan, GREAT retirement package, andtreats his employees far better than most. He's literally the ideal businessman. Since, duh, he's fucking Batman. The good guy. You only hate him because of his sucess and he has people working for him, people he pays and treats quite well. I seriously fail to see how Batman is bad,e ven in this case. I'm not being an appologist for capitalism, I'm pointing out the idiocy of hating a DC god simply because dud has money.

Quote :
He does nothing specially relevant and his status as superhero depends solely on exploitation.
You don't actually pay attention to his stories, do you. He save's Superman's ass more often than not, for Christ's sake. SUPERMAN.

Quote :
I'm exchanging my service as a student (which satisfies my mothers' needs) for manutention.
And Bats is exchanging his services of fighting crime and supervillans, thouse the regular police force are useless against what with their death rays and such, for.... nothing, really. He doesn't get anything from it, other than that good feeling Superman uses his Lead Linened suit when going up against a lot of Kryptonite. Is HE exploiting the work of others? He didn't make it, at least not in most stories.

Quote :
Dress in a leotard
You ahve a problem with that?

Quote :
beat the crap out of "criminals"
HOW are aliens, Joker, Penguin, Killer Croc, Scarecrow, Lex Luthor, and hwo many else not considered to you to be criminals?

Quote :
the resources provided me by the exploitation of thousands of workers?
Every time you turn on your computer you are using the resources brought onby the exploitation fo African slave labour. Enjoy it.

Quote :
2. He uses his resources to beat the crap of those who are criminals due to the same condition that allowed Wayne to be so rich.
Yes, because Catwoman, joker, Lex Luthor and countless alien inaders are just poor people down on their luck. Not a comic fan, are you?

Quote :
that he's considered such a superhero inspite of being comparatively a wimp without intrinsic powers and whose condition of superhero relies entirely on the exploitation of workers.
Black Panther. Robin. In FACT there are many DC characters who don't have powers. I FCT< MANY are without magic items with which to GIVE them powers, or without suits. And he could kick YOUR ass.

Quote :
Conveniently being disregarded the fact that he himself is a problem to the city and forms part of the genus of most of the community's problems.
So you don't like Superman either, then?

Quote :
Obviously he was doing his part to protect the status quo.
Yeah, gotta keep those poor aliens int heri place. Can't let them have their freedom of slaughtering us, now can we?

Quote :
Aside from an entrepeneur, he's also a revengeful adventurer that wants to take an active role in the protection
This is bad?
Quote :


of the status quo.
[quote]Aliens, joker.

Finally, I still haven't read the damn Watchmen comic. WANT to. Never have the money when I actually find it, though.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:05 am

LoL, Zealot got pwnt in his obvious hate.

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:25 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
Huh?

Adressed below.


Tyrong Kojy wrote:
If you're whining about if he minned the metal himself, the n I say the same to you. Did YOU?

Finally good old Tyrong makes an ad hominem!

I'm critizicing the dependance of his superhero status on his condition as a capitalist which means it depends entirely on the workforce below him. I never denied that, like him, I'm a bourgeoise. Yet that is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion as I'm not a guy who uses his income to create an alternate identity vigilante dressed in a bat costume and I'm not defending the status of bourgeoise.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

He bought the shit himself.

With money got from...? Ah below's the answer!

Tyrong_Kojy wrote:

Yes he profitted, but if you actually look at the man's business pracises, though he owns the company he does MUCH of the work himself. Again, he doesn't sit there doing nothing. He WORKS. A LOT.

Much of the work in comparison to thousands of workers? Factually impossible even within the fictious universe of DC Comics. The vast majority of his revenues comes from the pofit from the workers' work, in other words, what allows him his "superhero" practices.

He, like any bourgeoise, would be nothing without the workforce behind him. Well, he could be a muscled vigilante with some improvised weapons but that's it.

TK wrote:
Seriously, you only want to ahte him because he's rich.

Nope. I hate him because 1) he's a bourgeoise 2) he defends capitalism and 3) his superhero status is based on exploitation, that is, his superhero status depends entirely on the possibilities the exploitation of workers allow him.

I didn't even mention wealth. I mentioned his condition as a bourgeoise which are two different things. And my whole point is that his "powers" or his condition as superhero is due entirely to his condition as a bourgeoise.

TK wrote:

Gotta say dude, you're pretty fundie about this subject.

Nope and you'll see why.

TK wrote:

He doesn't exploit. He pays VERY fairly, has a LOVELY benifit plan, GREAT retirement package, andtreats his employees far better than most. He's literally the ideal businessman.

And that doesn't mean he doesn't exploit. He could go and kiss all the workers' babies and give them the best quality life possible and yet he'd be exploiting for the simple fact that he's profiting from the labour of the workers and he owns the means of production in which the workers work.

It's not about working conditions, it's not about living standards, it's about profiting from someone else's work, about having greater freedom and material conditions than some one else at the expense and directly as product of someone else's working for you. It's about you owning the means others need to suffice their needs and you taking an advantage of them.

TK wrote:

Since, duh, he's fucking Batman. The good guy.

Not in the eyes of a socialist.

TK wrote:

You only hate him because of his sucess

Of his succcess at the expense of others.

TK wrote:

and he has people working for him, people he pays and treats quite well.

Read above. He could be in a deep love relationship with all his workers and the condition of exploitation wouldn't wither away.

He's not even close to the bourgeoise that thought up utopic socialism. They were bourgeoise and their efforts were pretty much focused into handling over the economy to the workers for them to directly manage it and for them (the bourgeoise) to become workers themselves. To nullify the relationship of exploitation.

TK wrote:

I seriously fail to see how Batman is bad,e ven in this case.

Simple: He's a capitalist whose hobby is beating up criminals, criminals that exist due to the societal material conditions product of the socioeconoic framework of the community where Batman develops, in other words, criminals that exist thanks to capitalism.

TK wrote:

I'm not being an appologist for capitalism, I'm pointing out the idiocy of hating a DC god simply because dud has money.

I'd have to point out then the idiocy of thinking that I hate him just for having money when I have broadly explained my reasons. Him having that amount of money is the byproduct of the condition of his as a bourgeoise the condition that made him be in the first place and allows him to be a vigilante who is considered a superhero being this the reason for which I hate him.

I don't even hate him being a bourgeoise, I hate him being a bourgeoise vigilante and being considered a superhero for that.

TK wrote:
You don't actually pay attention to his stories, do you. He save's Superman's ass more often than not, for Christ's sake. SUPERMAN.

With the condition provided to him by the exploitation of workers.

TK wrote:
And Bats is exchanging his services of fighting crime and supervillans, thouse the regular police force are useless against what with their death rays and such, for.... nothing, really.

He's protecting his status quo and the integrity of his assets.

There are three classes:

Bourgeoise - Owns means of production and has workers working for him.
Petit-Boourgeoise - Works for himself, has no workers working for him and exchanges the product of his direct work for revenue. Example: a guy that owns a grocery store and who attends it himself, alone. Example 2: a housemaid - a woman that comes to a house and asks for money in exchange of cleaning the house - no one profits from her work.
Proletariat - Works for the bourgeoise who profits from his labour.

When you're a bourgeoise, that's your dominant class even if you also have the condition of a petit-bourgeoise and/or a proletarian.

Batman, as you put it in your reply to my reply to Jesus' ad hominem, wouldn't even be a petit-bourgeoise s he's exchanging his service for nothing except perhaps reputation and respect and the sweet sense of fear from criminals, yet, he's a bourgeoise and this is his dominant class. Not to mention that it is his condition as bourgeoise what allows him to have his vigilante hobby.

TK wrote:

He doesn't get anything from it, other than that good feeling Superman uses his Lead Linened suit when going up against a lot of Kryptonite. Is HE exploiting the work of others? He didn't make it, at least not in most stories.

We're talking about the production of the Lead Linened suit, right?

X produces the Lead Linened suit for Superman. Superman in exchange provides with his super hero service protecting X from Y threat. It was not produced by someone who works for Clark Kent for Clark Kent to sell the product of that someone's work.

Batman buys steel for his batmobile with money got from selling X product produced by his workers.

See the difference?

TK wrote:

Quote :
Dress in a leotard
You ahve a problem with that?

This was in response to Jesus saying that Batman did the same as me I pointed out that unlike batman I don't wear a leotard.

Also, it's definitely visually unappealing to me. Other than that he can do as he likes so long as he's not a superhero thanks to the sweat of thousands of workers.

TK wrote:
HOW are aliens, Joker, Penguin, Killer Croc, Scarecrow, Lex Luthor, and hwo many else not considered to you to be criminals?

I'm sure that the array of targets within his scope is broader than that. Still:

Joker - As far as I remember he ended up as the Joker due to his precarious material conditions.

Penguin - He's another bourgeoise, as far as I know, with teh difference that he's illegal.

Killer Croc - Isn't he some sort of mutated being? If so, again product of material conditions.

Scarecrow - Again. Also as far as I remember he steals money or something lke that doesn't he? Why would he need money in the first place? Ah yes, capitalism.

Lex Luthor - Cappie, psychotic competitor.

Anyone that steals is not to be considered by me a criminal since the status quo is what forces people to steal and the material conditions set the basis for the upbringing of a person including many of those that are wackos.

TK wrote:
Every time you turn on your computer you are using the resources brought onby the exploitation fo African slave labour. Enjoy it.

Strike two - second ad hominem!

When did I say exploitation was good or that I enjoy the existance of the stratification of society?

Again, I'm just saying that Batman's condition as a superhero is merely due to his condition as an exploitator and that his targets are product of that exploitation.

TK wrote:
Yes, because Catwoman, joker, Lex Luthor and countless alien inaders are just poor people down on their luck. Not a comic fan, are you?

Certainly not a comic fan. But I'm definitely aware that, as for all the terrestrial targets of Batman, they exist in such a way thanks to the socioeconomic system we have.


TK wrote:
Black Panther. Robin. In FACT there are many DC characters who don't have powers. I FCT< MANY are without magic items with which to GIVE them powers, or without suits.
Are they bourgeoise too whose condition of superheroes relies on the exploitation of workers? If not, then your point is moot.

TK wrote:

And he could kick YOUR ass.
So could most afro-american convicts, Yemelianenko, any somalian boy with an AK-47 or Stephen Hawking if he had a rocket launcher attached to his chair. Your point?


TK wrote:

So you don't like Superman either, then?

Nope but 1) he's far more deserving of the title "superhero" than Batman and 2) he's culprit of the problems his community suffers in a far different way than Wayne.

TK wrote:
Yeah, gotta keep those poor aliens int heri place. Can't let them have their freedom of slaughtering us, now can we?

I wonder if he used any of his artifacts when battling them.... if so, all hail the workers of Wayne Enterprises!

TK wrote:

Quote :
Aside from an entrepeneur, he's also a revengeful adventurer that wants to take an active role in the protection
This is bad?

Being a bourgeoise, yes. Being revengeful, arguably yes. In the protection of the status quo, of course.

TK wrote:
Quote :
of the status quo.
Aliens, joker.

Aliens - Batman could fight them effectively thanks to his workers.
Joker - Product of the status quo.

And again, as far as I know the array of targets of his vigilante activity is broader than just aliens, Lex and the Joker.


TK wrote:

Finally, I still haven't read the damn Watchmen comic. WANT to. Never have the money when I actually find it, though.

I could send it to you like I did to Black_Cross, but well, you are against piracy aren't you?

Jesus wrote:
LoL, Zealot got pwnt in his obvious hate.

This comes as absolutely no surprise from you, Jeezie.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:53 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Scarecrow - Again. Also as far as I remember he steals money or something lke that doesn't he? Why would he need money in the first place? Ah yes, capitalism.
Oh I dont know, why he needs money in the first place? Maybe to buy a home, food, entertainment and shit. Just thinking. And he is oh so good cause he doesnt want to be exploited and just steals shit.

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:59 am

CKX wrote:

Oh I dont know, why he needs money in the first place? Maybe to buy a home, food, entertainment and shit.

Which is necesary due to capitalism.

CKX wrote:

Just thinking. And he is oh so good cause he doesnt want to be exploited and just steals shit.

There is a saying in mexico, I don't know if there's an equivalent in english or soemthing that goes something like "Thief who steals from thief deserves to be forgiven".

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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:05 am

Quote :

Joker - As far as I remember he ended up as the Joker due to his precarious material conditions.

Penguin - He's another bourgeoise, as far as I know, with teh difference that he's illegal.

Killer Croc - Isn't he some sort of mutated being? If so, again product of material conditions.

Scarecrow - Again. Also as far as I remember he steals money or something lke that doesn't he? Why would he need money in the first place? Ah yes, capitalism.

Lex Luthor - Cappie, psychotic competitor.

i will continue this marxist exploration of supervillians and super heroes

Bane- The man who broke Batman, he was born, to serve out the life sentence of his father, and is a drug addict. he is the "bane" of batman's existence, he broke his back, and unleashed every maniac from arkham asylum. Bane is only a victim of his material conditions.

The Green Lantern-A horrible anomaly, he is a pilot for the imperial reich, and a text book example of wielding advanced weapons against primal opponents.

The Green Arrow-A hero most of us socialists can adhere to, here is a pretty solid quote on him, " Denny O'Neil chose to have him lose his fortune, giving him the then-unique role of streetwise crusader for the working class and the disadvantaged." The Green Arrow represents the ugly side of society that no other superhero could, he is a rugged worker, and his best friend was addicted to heroin. "on a quest to find America, witnessing the problems of corruption, racism, pollution, and overpopulation confronting the nation."
He is a hero deserving much respect.

i will continue this post, gotta split for now.
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PostSubject: Re: Superheroes   Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:20 am

Quote :
Finally good old Tyrong makes an ad hominem!
Not an ad hominem. An Ad hominem is if I had said "If you're whining about if he minned the metal himself, then you're an idiot and fuck you." What I did was make you as my example/argument. NOT Ad hominem.

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alternate identity vigilante dressed in a bat costume and I'm not defending the status of bourgeoise.
Do you have an issue with alternate identies to protect your loved ones and bats?

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Nope. I hate him because 1) he's a bourgeoise 2) he defends capitalism and 3)
Two things. One, do you know what an antisemetic Jew is? And two, now THESE are real reasons! Unfortunately, you loose all credibility therein with your next point....

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his superhero status is based on exploitation, that is, his superhero status depends entirely on the possibilities the exploitation of workers allow him.
Yeah,c an't be because he saves the worls, or anything.

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or his condition as superhero is due entirely to his condition as a bourgeoise.
So h's only a superhero because he bought his way in? Not because he saves the world?

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Not in the eyes of a socialist.

I guess socialists support the Joker, alien invaders, Lex Luthor, who is in no uncertain terms an evil capitalist, LITERALLY, Catwoman, Killer Croc, etc, so on, and so forth.
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He's not even close to the bourgeoise that thought up utopic socialism. They were bourgeoise and their efforts were pretty much focused into handling over the economy to the workers for them to directly manage it and for them (the bourgeoise) to become workers themselves. To nullify the relationship of exploitation.
See now, THESE are actual reasons for hating him! Actual philisophical ones based on his acurrment of wealth! While it's still debateable whether or not this is evil in and of itself, they're valid points to hate him!

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Simple: He's a capitalist whose hobby is beating up criminals, criminals that exist due to the societal material conditions product of the socioeconoic framework of the community where Batman develops, in other words, criminals that exist thanks to capitalism.
Aliens, aliens, aliens, aliens, Lex Luthor, joker, aliens, Greek Gods, aliens, aliens, demons, aliens, psychotic killers, aliens, people who steal because it's thrilling and they like to, not for money purposes, aliens, Darkseid, aliens, Evil scientists, zombies, aliens, and oh yeah, aliens.

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bourgeoise vigilante and being considered a superhero for that.
With the exception of some members of the Justice League and the government, who knows he's even rich? or his socital state? Oh, and for the record, Batman payed for everythign the Justice League has.

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He's protecting his status quo and the integrity of his assets.
Batman destroys several of his own factories and tears apart labs and entire divisions of his own company. His company's wellfare is NOT the top thing on his mind.

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Not to mention that it is his condition as bourgeoise what allows him to have his vigilante hobby.
No, he'd still do it. He just wouldn't be able to do it as WELL.

[quote]X produces the Lead Linened suit for Superman. Superman in exchange provides with his super hero service protecting X from Y threat.[quote]This differs from Bats how?

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It was not produced by someone who works for Clark Kent for Clark Kent to sell the product of that someone's work.
I didn't know Bruce wayne sold copies of the Batmobile! or his grapple hook. Or his other shit..... And his computer is, at the time, the most powerful on the planet, keeping the technology to HIMSELF, NOT to be sold. Tech he invented. Or got from other JL members by their own volition. Or he payed for it. But that's fair, is it not? He payed for their work. not explpoitation. Like Ray Palmer, aka Atom man. (Might be wrong on the name. If so, sorry.)
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Killer Croc - Isn't he some sort of mutated being? If so, again product of material conditions.
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Batman buys steel for his batmobile with money got from selling X product produced by his workers.
And again, THIS is a fairly valid point. I still say he does a lot of work, and if you think about it and actually look at his finances he doens't make that mucch, ultimately, even before purchasing anything. Not important, or useful for my purposes, just saying.

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so long as he's not a superhero thanks to the sweat of thousands of workers.
I would bet you most of those workers would be fully willing to work for bloody Batman if they knew.

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Joker - As far as I remember he ended up as the Joker due to his precarious material conditions.
No, he's just fucking crasy. The Tim Burton movie made him a theif, but he's actually just fucking crasy.

Birth defect. And even if he was mutated, how would that be a product of material conditions, besides it haing to be physically done to him whether through pollution or an evil scientist, and how would that be keeping the status quo? He's called Killer Croc for a reason, you know.

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Penguin - He's another bourgeoise, as far as I know, with teh difference that he's illegal.
Fair point.

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Scarecrow - Again. Also as far as I remember he steals money or something lke that doesn't he? Why would he need money in the first place? Ah yes, capitalism.

I THINK he's just a control freak. And besides, even if it's capitalism, how is that Wayne's fault?

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Lex Luthor - Cappie, psychotic competitor
Yes.

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Anyone that steals is not to be considered by me a criminal since the status quo is what forces people to steal and the material conditions set the basis for the upbringing of a person including many of those that are wackos.
So when Catwoman steals yet another cat shapped peice of jewlery or feline teed jewel because she's a clepto, she's not a criminal? And yes, I know she' generally considered a hero because she stops the psychos, but she's still a theif there only because she likes cat themed treasures. Therapy might be her best bet, here. And medication.

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Strike two - second ad hominem!
Again, not an ad hominem. A tatement, not an insult as my argument.

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Again, I'm just saying that Batman's condition as a superhero is merely due to his condition as an exploitator and that his targets are product of that exploitation.
And again you loost the point. He would be a superhero either way, just not as good.

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Certainly not a comic fan. But I'm definitely aware that, as for all the terrestrial targets of Batman, they exist in such a way thanks to the socioeconomic system we have.
Read my corrections of your villan references.

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Are they bourgeoise too whose condition of superheroes relies on the exploitation of workers? If not, then your point is moot.
You said he was without power and a wimp. I gave examples of those without power,. I hope by now you see what ecxactly I'm trying to argue here, dude.

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So could most afro-american convicts, Yemelianenko, any somalian boy with an AK-47 or Stephen Hawking if he had a rocket launcher attached to his chair. Your point?
Read above.

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Nope but 1) he's far more deserving of the title "superhero" than Batman
Say who?

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"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest


Last edited by Tyrong Kojy on Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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