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Jesus
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PostSubject: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:56 am

I just realized, how much bullshit every Capitalism vs Communism thread here was.

As, a great 99% of the time, you defended actual tryal of Communism, as being fake communism.

And then saying the ideal communism has not yet been practiced.

Well just realized, we could say the same shit for Capitalism.

Capitalism is to provide the best deal for man, AKA customer.

Capitalism Isn't made of evil and shit, just hasn't been applied yet.

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An I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you
- Ezekial 25:17


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MightyObserver
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:20 am

You've got a huge battle to fight...


and it's realization.





...so, yeah




...good luck with that



We'll see how it turns out.


I hope you're prepared.

My honest opinion? You don't stand a chance.
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Jesus
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:28 am

Sorry in french it's with an S.

Anyways, yeah i'm pretty much a loner, with Socialists and Communists everywhere here.

So even if i'm right i'l loose at 99,999% chance.

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MightyObserver
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:36 am

Jesus wrote:
Sorry in french it's with an S.

That's fine.




Whether they agree with you or not about wether or not 'true capitalism' exists anywhere right now, I would expect to see some arguments as to how 'capitalism is bad' based on it's actual definition and description, among other things.

I really don't see how you could win this. No offense, since you seem to already agree with me about that.
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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:37 am

America isn't capitalist. it's corporatist. Which is to capitalism like Stalinism is to communism.

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Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
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Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
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Tyrlop
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:40 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
America isn't capitalist. it's corporatist. Which is to capitalism like Stalinism is to communism.
i would rather call it a "Police-state" or in danish called: "NatvŠgterstat" or "Minimalstat"
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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:55 pm

MightyObserver wrote:
You've got a huge battle to fight...


and it's realization.





...so, yeah




...good luck with that



We'll see how it turns out.


I hope you're prepared.

My honest opinion? You don't stand a chance.

Haha you bastard.


Anyways, its only on this forum the whole Capitalism vs Communism thing, in Western countries it ain' SHIT. They dont even mention communism cuz it wont never be shit in it, in Western countries its just "Left wing vs Right wing" for example: "Social-democracy vs Christian democracy", "Left-green vs Liberalism", "Socialism vs Consevratism" or shit like that. And then the socialist party's are only some whiny bitches.

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WeiWuWei
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:14 pm

Jesus wrote:
I just realized, how much bullshit every Capitalism vs Communism thread here was.

As, a great 99% of the time, you defended actual tryal of Communism, as being fake communism.

And then saying the ideal communism has not yet been practiced.

Well just realized, we could say the same shit for Capitalism.

Capitalism is to provide the best deal for man, AKA customer.

Capitalism Isn't made of evil and shit, just hasn't been applied yet.

Fair point, but just as someone can object to tried Communism, fake Communism, and ideal Communism all at once, someone can also object to tried Capitalism, fake Capitalism, and even ideal Capitalism all at once.

Every time you talk about things like this, you have to define what you mean by these terms, and you also have to understand what other people mean by them too. It's a chore, and it sucks that we all get muddled in stupid shit like semantics, but you have to clarify just what exactly you mean by Communism and just what exactly you mean by Capitalism when you talk about them.

But still, I think a person can reasonably object to both what Capitalism has been (the Bretton-Woods post-World War II system, the political and economic makeup of most Western European countries during the Industrial Revolution, etc.) and what its proponents want Capitalism to be (completely free market).
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:13 am

Jesus wrote:
As, a great 99% of the time, you defended actual tryal of Communism, as being fake communism.

It's not 'fake communism', it's state-run capitalism under the guise of communism.

If i say i'm Mr. Rogers, it doesn't mean i'm wearing a sweater.

Quote :
And then saying the ideal communism has not yet been practiced.

Ya, it's never come to that point. There have, however, been cases in which a collectivized economy has been tried, and it's worked well. You could also look back in history and see collectivized economies prior to the rise capitalism, even during the feudalist period. Simply, there is sufficient evidence that collectivized economy and classless society is viable.

Quote :
Well just realized, we could say the same shit for Capitalism.

Capitalism is to provide the best deal for man, AKA customer.

But your definition is shallow (whereas our definitions are rooted in historical and material relations), almost meaningless, and your ideal capitalism is not a viable system. Matta had a chance recently to delineate what this ideal capitalism might look like, and why it would be viable, but he passed. If you'd like to do so here, be my guest, but i have an inkling that your just clinging to ideology.

Quote :
Capitalism Isn't made of evil and shit, just hasn't been applied yet.

I don't think anyone has claimed it is. The claim is that it creates coercive, heirarchical political and economic relations between people, leading to societal, moral, physical and mental deficiencies (to be brief about it).

There has yet to be put forward, to my knowledge, a comprehensive rebuttal to this position, or to the violent history of usurpation that has led into the capitalist era (or whatever era you want to claim it is, since it's obviously not capitalist by your standard).

TK wrote:
America isn't capitalist. it's corporatist.

The analogy is fair.

Could you explain how/why capitalism doesn't necessarily lead to corporatism?

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WeiWuWei
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:01 am

Black_Cross wrote:
Could you explain how/why capitalism doesn't necessarily lead to corporatism?

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and try and attempt this one.

Really, the argument is very brief, and it only really refers to what a corporation actually is. Some of us on the left like to bitch and moan - and, frankly, I think we're right in doing so - that corporations are too powerful and engage in unsavory activities: exploitation and environmental degradation are usually the two you hear being talked about.

It's important to understand that corporations are legal entities that are granted the same rights as citizens by a government. And since those who espouse what they see as being the ideal, unachieved form of Capitalism don't want any government involvement in the market, they would most likely object to giving protections to businesses - they'd be even more outraged by giving protections to gigantic businesses such as corporations that threaten creating a monopoly, since they like the free market because they think it will lead to the greatest form of individual liberty, and a monopoly threatens that liberty.

It really all depends on understanding corporations as not just powerful economic entities, but legal entities.

To be fair, though, you and I definitely agree that practical, existing Capitalism essentially is Corporatism, just not in name. But some people who call themselves "Capitalists" I frankly think are opposed to Corporatism as well, just for different reasons. But, like I said, we can oppose both Corporatism and ideal Capitalism and still be logically consistent.
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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:25 am

Black_Cross wrote:


If i say i'm Mr. Rogers, it doesn't mean i'm wearing a sweater.

Hah!

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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:19 am

Quote :
The analogy is fair.

Could you explain how/why capitalism doesn't necessarily lead to corporatism?

Who said it doesn't? Without checks and balances, as well as regulation, it enevitably will. And will likely bring the return of child labour and slavery.

Corporations are not inherently evil, not even exploitative in and of themselves. It's the people who come to power and use that power only for personal gain, at the expence of, well, EVERYONE else, even their monetary supporters, aka the shareholders, which are SUPPOSED to be, in the corporatist ssystem the most important things to the corporation, as has been seen time and again over the last eight years.

It should be noted that I don't think the EXISTANCE of corporations is inherently corporatism itzelf, only when the recieve too much power, and subsequently abuse it. A corporation CAN, POTENTIALLY, be a very good element. They're not right now, but they CAN. Just like communism hasn't worked yet in the large scale. it CAN, but hasn't.

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My friends,
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Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
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Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:14 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
Who said it doesn't? Without checks and balances, as well as regulation, it enevitably will. And will likely bring the return of child labour and slavery.

And how can we ever be sure that corporate/capitalist interests do not permeate the legislature or other government functions? Our 'representatives' are only human after all.

Quote :
Corporations are not inherently evil, not even exploitative in and of themselves. It's the people who come to power and use that power only for personal gain, at the expence of, well, EVERYONE else, even their monetary supporters, aka the shareholders, which are SUPPOSED to be, in the corporatist ssystem the most important things to the corporation, as has been seen time and again over the last eight years.

Isn't this too the natural outcome when your entire job (CEOs and other corporate execs) is to valorize capital? They're not in these positions to please the public. They're in positions to increase capital and perpetuate their businesses (if they fail, self-preservation becomes the name of the game; capitalist competition be damned).

Quote :
It should be noted that I don't think the EXISTANCE of corporations is inherently corporatism itzelf, only when the recieve too much power, and subsequently abuse it. A corporation CAN, POTENTIALLY, be a very good element. They're not right now, but they CAN. Just like communism hasn't worked yet in the large scale. it CAN, but hasn't.

Viruses can be a good thing too, but it's not worth institutionalizing on chance alone. Faith, whether placed in corporations, capitalists, statesmen, viruses or god, will get us little if anything in the way of security and hapiness -- which, it just so happens, are the reasons human beings conglomerate.

A sturdier foundation than competition is necessary if we truly want security for ourselves and others. And hell, we may just begin to see what that foundation will look like if the capitalist system doesn't come out of this crisis with its head above water.

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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:24 pm

There are a lot of arguments that can be made here.

The point of Capitalism is not to rip people off, ripping people off is just a biproduct of capitalism, and capitalism you do what ever you can to succede and make money for yourself/family. The people who came up with this didnt think through to the fact that everyone is human. If everyone is rich and owns a business who will do the work? Other people. And therefore their are the workers and the capitalists, which is what Marx points out in the Capitalist manifesto.
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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:45 am

Quote :
And how can we ever be sure that corporate/capitalist interests do not permeate the legislature or other government functions?

We can't. Never said otherwise.

Quote :
Isn't this too the natural outcome when your entire job (CEOs and other corporate execs) is to valorize capital? They're not in these positions to please the public. They're in positions to increase capital and perpetuate their businesses (if they fail, self-preservation becomes the name of the game; capitalist competition be damned).

THAT'S the reason we need regulation, to prevent this. MANY checks and balances are required for capitalism to truly work. Most people who call themselves capitalists don't actually have a clue how the system we have now works nor is working, nor how idealy it SHOULD work. At least by MY observation that's true.

Quote :
Viruses can be a good thing too, but it's not worth institutionalizing on chance alone. Faith, whether placed in corporations, capitalists, statesmen, viruses or god, will get us little if anything in the way of security and hapiness -- which, it just so happens, are the reasons human beings conglomerate.

You know the same can, and I did say, be said about communism, right? Ultimately, is it worth instuting on faitha lone, since it's yet to work i the large scale that humans have nowadays? I'm not arguing against the system, I'm simply pointing out how you said there is, well, yeah....

_________________
"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:47 am

Jesus wrote:
I just realized, how much bullshit every Capitalism vs Communism thread here was.

As, a great 99% of the time, you defended actual tryal of Communism, as being fake communism.

And then saying the ideal communism has not yet been practiced.

Well just realized, we could say the same shit for Capitalism.

Capitalism is to provide the best deal for man, AKA customer.

Capitalism Isn't made of evil and shit, just hasn't been applied yet.

first lefty to realize capitalism isn't THE system but A system
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:12 pm

Liche wrote:
The point of Capitalism is not to rip people off, ripping people off is just a biproduct of capitalism...

Not if you look at the metamorphosis of feudalism to capitalism. The capitalist epoch begins by ripping people off. It may not be what capitalist sympathizers/apologists believe capitalism ideally represents, but that's of little-to-no consequence.

Quote :
The people who came up with this didnt think through to the fact that everyone is human.

The people who invented (if you will) capitalism had all the best intentions for humanity, but a good-willed marauder is still a marauder (And a good-willed maroon a maroon).

Quote :
which is what Marx points out in the Capitalist manifesto.

Do you mean Capital or The Communist Manifesto?

matta wrote:
first lefty to realize capitalism isn't THE system but A system

Jesus isn't a leftist, to be sure.

TK wrote:
We can't. Never said otherwise.

I've never accused you of saying anything, i'm just inquiring since i know you support capitalism.

Quote :
THAT'S the reason we need regulation, to prevent this.

I understand, but even those who would enforce these regulations are subject to bribery. Regulation isn't fool-proof.

Quote :
You know the same can, and I did say, be said about communism, right? Ultimately, is it worth instuting on faitha lone, since it's yet to work i the large scale that humans have nowadays? I'm not arguing against the system, I'm simply pointing out how you said there is, well, yeah....

Except (save a few cases) communists and anarchists don't want to implement a collectivized mode of production based on faith; we base our conclusions on what can be observed of the human condition throughout history; we base it on the community (which necessarily excludes faith, since the society would be run from the grassroots, leaving everyone in a position to equally influence their society and their own lives); We base it on our very existance, considering the condition of our planet due in large part to this flimsy and wasteful mode of production.

As for collective modes of production on a large scale, there's no historical evidence of how that would work, but technology and communication has come a long way since feudalism. Mankind will continue to make full use of these things no matter what kind of economic mode is in place.

No one knows for a fact how well global communism would work, but what we do know is that the system we have now is failing most everyone, and it's time to try our alternatives.

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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:03 pm

Quote :
Except (save a few cases) communists and anarchists don't want to implement a collectivized mode of production based on faith; we base our conclusions on what can be observed of the human condition throughout history; we base it on the community (which necessarily excludes faith, since the society would be run from the grassroots, leaving everyone in a position to equally influence their society and their own lives); We base it on our very existance, considering the condition of our planet due in large part to this flimsy and wasteful mode of production.

As for collective modes of production on a large scale, there's no historical evidence of how that would work, but technology and communication has come a long way since feudalism. Mankind will continue to make full use of these things no matter what kind of economic mode is in place.

No one knows for a fact how well global communism would work, but what we do know is that the system we have now is failing most everyone, and it's time to try our alternatives.

All I was saying was you said that we shlould not hae capitalism based on faith alone, and thus I sad that the same could, hypothetically be said about communism, that claiming that was one in the same. Both have the same ammount of evidence and potential based on what history has taught us. I was in no way arguing against it, I was simply pointing out the... well, the only word I can think of is hypocrasy, but that sounds too rude. Adn I know, (still using hypocracy), that it was unintentional.

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"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:56 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
All I was saying was you said that we shlould not hae capitalism based on faith alone, and thus I sad that the same could, hypothetically be said about communism, that claiming that was one in the same.

I understood.

Quote :
Both have the same ammount of evidence and potential based on what history has taught us.

Considering how dichotomous the two systems are, i don't think this could be the case. To me this seems like saying there could be the same or similar amounts of evidence supporting evolution and creation.

Quote :
I was in no way arguing against it, I was simply pointing out the... well, the only word I can think of is hypocrasy, but that sounds too rude. Adn I know, (still using hypocracy), that it was unintentional.

I'm not going to get butt-hurt and chastise you for your opinion. I want everyone to speak freely, and if that's the case, i understand that there will be people who won't like what others have to say; that just comes with the territory.

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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:19 am

After a couple of week experiencing the public school system in Canada, i came to this conclusion:

The average man is simply too stupid, or not educated at best.

When i hear shit like

''Canada should sell it's water, it's going to make jobs''

or

''It's okay if we get short on Oil, that thing regenarates''
(Only takes a couple of Billion years you stupid bitch)

or even the best

''I watched a scientific documentary where they said the Chinese people had lower average life span than us''

NO SHIT! They work 72H a week with miserable condition, wtf do you expect.

That our people washing theyr driveway with water that would be enough for more than a year to an African family.

It makes me desperate.

The average man, is simply too fucking stupid to take part in the decision of our future.

I simply refuse to let the ineducated and the stupid take place in this.

If we don't react, and simply let things go, our asses will be bitten by the fury of Mother Earth. That and multiple future wars over what's left of our ressources.

It's time for a revolution.

Power to the capable man.

Slavery to the stupids with no will whatsoever to improve themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:11 pm

That's retarted as fuck Karl, I dont know about you but that is not a average man, that's a low educated fuck.

Maybe as kids they are all douchebags but when they are around 30 years and have a job and/or family with them, they will certainly become more smarter.

I mean shit, your drawing your conclusion from a middle high school? C'moonnn.

If the average man in Canada is that retarted it would be like Africa there.

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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:20 pm

Jesus wrote:
After a couple of week experiencing the public school system in Canada, i came to this conclusion:

The average man is simply too stupid, or not educated at best.

When i hear shit like

''Canada should sell it's water, it's going to make jobs''

or

''It's okay if we get short on Oil, that thing regenarates''
(Only takes a couple of Billion years you stupid bitch)

or even the best

''I watched a scientific documentary where they said the Chinese people had lower average life span than us''

NO SHIT! They work 72H a week with miserable condition, wtf do you expect.

That our people washing theyr driveway with water that would be enough for more than a year to an African family.

It makes me desperate.

The average man, is simply too fucking stupid to take part in the decision of our future.

I simply refuse to let the ineducated and the stupid take place in this.

If we don't react, and simply let things go, our asses will be bitten by the fury of Mother Earth. That and multiple future wars over what's left of our ressources.

It's time for a revolution.

Power to the capable man.

Slavery to the stupids with no will whatsoever to improve themselves.

All hail the elite! Glory to those who can afford education! Send the poor to the gulag! Primogeniture for all!

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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:04 pm

CoolKidX wrote:
That's retarted as fuck Karl, I dont know about you but that is not a average man, that's a low educated fuck.

Maybe as kids they are all douchebags but when they are around 30 years and have a job and/or family with them, they will certainly become more smarter.

I mean shit, your drawing your conclusion from a middle high school? C'moonnn.

If the average man in Canada is that retarted it would be like Africa there.

It's the average of an average school.

It's the future.

And yes, still a great part of adults are pretty much oblivious to anything else but themselves.

Wait did we just re-elect George Bush?

Dumb as a doorknob.

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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:06 pm

Jesus wrote:


It's the average of an average school.
Source?

Jesus wrote:
It's the future.
Not really.

Jesus wrote:
Wait did we just re-elect George Bush?
Who are you talking for now? Canada? USA? The world?

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Jesus
World Republic Party Member


Posts : 679
Join date : 2008-09-12
Age : 23
Location : Behind you're back

PostSubject: Re: Realization   Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:14 pm

CoolKidX wrote:
Jesus wrote:


It's the average of an average school.
Source?

Jesus wrote:
It's the future.
Not really.

Jesus wrote:
Wait did we just re-elect George Bush?
Who are you talking for now? Canada? USA? The world?

The human race in general. Lost faith in it.

Well, on all the school in Quebec, mine is like 230 on 450. It's pretty damn average

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PostSubject: Re: Realization   Today at 4:56 am

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