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 How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis

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WeiWuWei
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:19 am

alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:
WeiWuWei wrote:
Liche wrote:
Alex, Im sorry. I can't believe that Nazis killed babies and teens.

I didn't bother to read the rest of your post because this is just blatantly false, because all historiographical work on the subject of Nazi Germany suggests otherwise.

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~baustin/children.html
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005142
http://www.graceproducts.com/fmnc/main.htm

Racism, propaganda, and coercion can make anyone, from the zealous patriot to the lowly clerk functionary who's just doing his job, into a murderer.

EDIT: I know I come off sounding harsh here, but I have to be, just as anyone else has to be when talking about the subject of the Nazis. They committed terrible atrocities, and we're not doing anyone any favors by trying to undercut what they did. Genocide is genocide is genocide, no matter how you try and slice and dice it.
I know I still need to explain that other part, but this caught my eye. Are you saying the Nazis did not kill babies and children? Is that what you're saying?

No, Alex, I'm not. I'm arguing, rather emphatically, that they did. I'll quote a section of the first link I provided:

"Full statistics for the tragic fate of children who died during the Holocaust will never be known. Some estimates range as high as 1.5 million murdered children. This figure includes more than 1.2 million Jewish children, tens of thousands of Gypsy children and thousands of institutionalized handicapped children who were murdered under Nazi rule in Germany and occupied Europe."


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CoolKidX
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:19 am

I wanna make sure that everyone doesn't think that,
The most people died of a certain country = suffered the most.

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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:20 am

CoolKidX wrote:
I wanna make sure that everyone doesn't think that,
The most people died of a certain country = suffered the most.

That's a pretty fair point.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:23 am

CoolKidX wrote:
I wanna make sure that everyone doesn't think that,
The most people died of a certain country = suffered the most.
No it doesn't. But this, mixed with the fact that the civs were tortured and so much of Russian civilization was destroyed- so many villages and industry.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:37 am

Alex, dieing isn't suffering. Actually, its the exact opposite. The alway to get rid of suffering is to die.

This is as far as Im going to go on this subject, my posts arguments are already controversial enough. And WWW, I'd really appreciate it if you read my whole post
Quote :
"When you assume your just making an ASS of U and ME"
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:42 am

Liche wrote:
Alex, dieing isn't suffering. Actually, its the exact opposite. The alway to get rid of suffering is to die.

This is as far as Im going to go on this subject, my posts arguments are already controversial enough. And WWW, I'd really appreciate it if you read my whole post
Quote :
"When you assume your just making an ASS of U and ME"
Liche, I said that dieing quickly is much easier. that's why instant death is much better than slow and painful death- which is exactly what I'm talking about! They would crucify people alive, make people dig their own graves and then shoot the, cut off people ears, eyes, and nose and poke out there eyes and slit their stomachs- I'm talking about that kind of stuff. that isn't painless, is it? On the contrary, they would keep them alive so the pain would last as long as possible. And this horrible form of dying, mixed with the amount of Russia that was turned into a scene from the revelations, and how Russia suffered industrially (i.e. farming land, factories, etc)
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:54 am

Well, Im thinking you might of the Spanish Inquisition/Dick Cheyne mixed up with the Nazis (I know, its hard to believe Dick Cheyne wasn't a Nazi).

And please don't spam a bunch of pictures of people with their stomachs cut open. If I was in to that kind of stuff Id be at deathchan right now. I would however appreciate (VALID) evidence
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:01 am

Liche wrote:
Well, Im thinking you might of the Spanish Inquisition/Dick Cheyne mixed up with the Nazis (I know, its hard to believe Dick Cheyne wasn't a Nazi).

And please don't spam a bunch of pictures of people with their stomachs cut open. If I was in to that kind of stuff Id be at deathchan right now. I would however appreciate (VALID) evidence
Did I say was going to spam those pics? I fyou wanted to see them, i would've posted them. But I thought you wouldn't want to see them. However, the kind of death is a valid example of hoe the Russians were treated by the Nazis (title of the the thread).
This what I believe are the criteria: How the people were killed x quantity, How the land was left , and how industry suffered.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:05 am

Liche wrote:
And WWW, I'd really appreciate it if you read my whole post
Quote :
"When you assume your just making an ASS of U and ME"

I just did. I will say this: I don't think that the entire German populace was naive enough to think that the Jews were just going to be sent to big showers, and that there was nothing sinister about what was happening. It is more than fair to say that everyone who was involved with the concentration camps knew what was going on. The only thing that is important to note is that I'm sure that not everyone involved with the Holocaust were happy campers; by and large, a lot of people who served the Nazi regime were just functionaries - lowly clerks, military personnel, and etc. - who were basically just doing their job. Admittedly, their jobs were terrible, but they had to do it. To say that they weren't aware of what they were doing is just unfair.

As for the extermination v. murder thing, I think that's sort of an issue of splitting hairs. More importantly, it attempts to detach the individual from the terrible atrocities that they are committing. It's easy for the passive functionary who's just pushing around papers on his desk to say that his hands weren't dirtied by the Holocaust simply because he personally didn't kill anybody, but the fact of the matter is that he truly did. The indirect manner in which he did it doesn't grant him any innocence; he is still implicit in their deaths.

I realize, of course, that you're not defending the Nazis here. But I said it before, and I'll say it again: racism and nationalism are incredibly powerful ideas. They can influence people more than I think that you think they can.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:24 am

Fair enough.

I agree that at some point, they all knew what was going on. I also agree, that everyone involved, guards, clerks, and so on, were in fact guilty, though, knowing you are responsible for such a travesty, and didn't do anything to stop it is punishment enough. Now is a great time for a reference to Star Trek, in one episode of DS9 (which is set after a war that is basically the Holocaust) they capture a guy in space. They ID him, and it says hes a clerk who wasn't guilty at all, even though one of the crew members of DS9, a surviver from this Holocaust, wants nothing more than to prosecute him. She dose her own research, and matches a picture of the leader of a concentration camp with this alien. After this, the alien shows off the crimes he committed. But its eventually found out that he is indeed the clerk, but had cosmetic surgery to look like the guy who ran the concentration camp, because he felt so bad, that he wanted to plead guilty to the intergalactic super space court and in front of Space Empress Kim Kardashian or something, so that people would know what happened.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:34 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
As I said, yes Russia was hurt byt the German. However, that in no way justifies their own actions, no matter how much less they did.

No, but it explains why many would actually feel like doing it.

Tyrong_Kojy wrote:

"They rapped a city so we rapped a village." It's not a justifyabe action.

I don't believe anyone's arguing that. On the other hand, it was more than understandable and far more complex than "they raped a Soviet village so in retaliation they raped a German one".

Tyrong_Kojy wrote:

Russia sucked.

The reality is inmensely more complex than this.

Tyrong_Kojy wrote:

If anythin, the Brits and Americans, if it's simple quantity, were as saints in comparison.

Not even Britain was close to being as hit as the USSR was. What the British people had to endure was honey and milk compared to what the Soviet people had to go through. The condition of the Americans doesn't even deserve mention. Like with both World Wars, the amount of suffering endured and damage received by the USA were negligible in comparison to what the other peoples had to take. In contrast, USSR took the bulk of the burden of the war and suffered the heaviest damage while USA literally reaped benefits of the war.

I have to wonder how American soldiers would have behaved if they hava had to face what the USSR had to face. Just take a look at what they do in Iraq, a nation that in no way caused any harm to the USA and within a context in which the mainstream trend within the American people is far more progressive than in the 40's. Imagine how they'd have behaved fending off a Japanese invasion similar to the German invasion of the USSR in an era where racism and such were still mainstream in USA.

And, once again, I'm not talking about justifications or condoning anything, I'm talking about the context that lead the Soviets to behave as they behaved. Surely Americans and Brits were not forced into cannibalism by invaders that considered subhuman.

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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:01 pm

For people who finds it hard to understand how such brutal things could happen in Germany, I recommend you seeing the DEFA Film, About a German youngster who serves in the Red Army, as a Megaphone-Guy trying to convince the Germans to surrender:

(rest of the episodes are on youtube)

I think the people who suffer most is the German people.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:26 pm

Can suffering ultimately be quantified? Suffering is suffering when it's beyond a certai point. I suffer that my girlfriend isn't here, but that's on a whole other level. In war, suffering is suffering. All sides suffered, from America, to Britain, Germany, Russia, and the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, blacks, and intilectuals. Saying that Russia was justified because they suffered more is tripe. They suffered, and then they made other human beings suffer as well. THery were just as bad, and just as evil, for that suffering. Damn the Red Army. Damn the German Army. Damn the Americans and English and Japanese.

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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:25 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
Can suffering ultimately be quantified?

In the context of World War two, when comparing the experiences of entire peoples it can be both "quantified" and classified.


Tyrong_Kojy wrote:
In war, suffering is suffering. All sides suffered, from America, to Britain, Germany, Russia, and the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, blacks, and intilectuals.

Lets asess what the sides you mention had to endure:

America: Nearly no damage within its territory, nearly no civilian deaths. No invasion, no occupation forces, not a single city destroyed by enemy sieges and/or bombardments. No damage to industry or civilian infrastructure. All America had to take is a comparatively small amount of military casualties, meaning that the amount of people affected within America was proportionally small.

All the suffering the war may have caused within the American people was due to these casualties while teh affected ones did not have to even worry about an invasion and much less endure an occupation.

The war was mostly "economically beneficial" (in capitalist terms) to the USA as the USA lost far less material than the one produced and sold as product of the War. Let alone the benefits reaped during the post-war period. This means that, overall, the war implied even a benefit, at least indirectly, to most of the American populace while a small part was really negativelly affected by the war, mostly in an indirect way.

In reality, just a small part of the American population actually had a reason to have any resentment for the Japanese and a smaller one, for the Germans. Most "didn't experience the war".

Britain: While they had to endure a harsher situation than the USA by suffering constant bombardments thus actual damage to industry and civilian infrastructure as well as having a far more considerable amount of civilian losses and having the plausible threat of a German invasion, their situation was far closer to that of the USA than to USSR's. They had a relatively small amount of military losses and inspite of the threat did not have to deal with a German invasion and much less occupation.

The amount of British affected negatively by the war in a direct way was indeed far larger than that of of Americans and most of the the populace was negatively affected by the war in an indirect way which nonetheless was less dire than the conditions suffered in other places.

Most had a reason to have resentment towards the Germans and hundreds of thousands had been targeted by the Germans thus being directly affected.

Germany: Now we're talking about a populace that actually experienced the war in a quite considerable way. From the whole world war, Germany was among the countries that had to go through some of the worst: They suffered heavy constant bombardments mainly by Britain and USA having some cities almost wiped out of the Earth and losing literally millions of civilians to both bombardments and military incursions within its territory. Military losses were massive, being proportionally far higher than civilian losses yet both acounting for more than 10 million. Germany had to go through the occupation of its territory by several military forces impliying a division that literally lasted for decades.

Tens of millions of germans were directly targeted by the Allied forces meaning that most of the populace was directly affected by the War.

However, it was the Germans who started all this mess being them who actually caused more destruction and thus suffering than any side of the war both directly and indirectly. So, reasonably, the resentment felt by Germans for others' actions should be mitigated as it would have not happened in the first place had they not joined Hitler in his military adventure to conquer Europe.

USSR ( because "Russia" was hardly alone in this. Other soviet republics were completely conquered by Germany, more notably Ukraine and Belarus): From all the nations in the war, USSR had the greatest amount of human losses ranging in the order of tens of millions. Hundreds of Soviet villages and towns were completely destroyed, most main cities were under siege, partially destroyed and/or conquered for years. Millions of soviet inhabitants, given their ethnic, political and/or cultural background, were prosecuted systematically by the occupying forces. Germany managed to go through thousands of kilometres of soviet territory reaching the outskirts of the Capitol, Moscow. Industry was inmensely damaged and most of it had to be resettled, great part of USSR's cultural and historic patrimony had been destroyed by the German aggression.

More than 15% of the populace was killed while fending of invaders that considered said populace subhuman and deserving, at most, of the title of "servants". Most of the populace was directly affected by the war as they had to literally face the German forces, suffer constant attacks from it and/or have to resist their rule.

German occupation within the USSR implied a defacto genocide against the soviet population through battle and a systematic genocide of specially targetted groups (like Jews and gypsies).

Most of the USSR was forced by the german invasion to engage in a Total War meaning that most of the Soviet populace was directly affected by said conflagration.

The amount of irreversible damage caused to the soviet populace and its territory was the largest, slightly topping China's (as China was the country with the 2nd largest death toll). USSR was the country with the 2nd highest ratio of people killed per each 1,000 (seemingly one of the Baltic states, part of USSR later was the highest, I don't remember which).

Since the Soviet populace had to face the harshest conditions of the war and, since a far greater part of its population was affected directly by the war (in contrast to USA or Britain) more kids of people were affected directly and more ways than people in other countries. The amount of people that lost their loved ones, the amount of people that lost their dignity and of people in danger of losing their lives was inmensely larger than that of USA and Britain and considerably larger than that of Germany.

Not only the resentment generated by the german invasion was far more intense, this invasion affected a far wider and diverse array of people (sometimes in ways that were not experienced within other populaces) than within other nations, namely the ones you mentioned.

Considering that the amount of people that suffered was far larger, the causes of the suffering more diverse and direct and thus more intense it's just understandable that many would have wanted some sort of payback out of pure rage.

It's not the same as if you're living in New York, thousands of kilometres away from the war with your elder son killed in the front, your wife next to you in the safety of home and your younger son having to worry of no greater threat than bullies at school and the homework as if you have your elder son killed in the front, later you learn that your younger's son school was amidst a strike perpertrated by those who killed your elder son and he's missing, you're about to be conscripted into the army and don't know what the fate of your wife will be for no place within your land seems safe anymore.

It's not the same watching the war on TV or reading about it through letters that come from the front as listening to the constant shelling of your neighborhood, listening to machine-gun fire all day, experiencing electricity, water and food shortages or even complete lack of it having to recurr to eat the carcasses of dogs, pidgeons and even humans to survive, seeing the parks, streets, libraries, stores and such you used to visit destroyed, watching dead bodies pile over the ravaged streets, learn that many of your female friends were raped and killed and all amidst a context in which you know you could be the next defaced body on the streetor under a pile of rubble. "Living" that way for years.

Don't even try to compare the trauma suffered by Soviet people to the one suffered even by Germans much less with the one "suffered" by Americans.

I'm sure you understand what many would feel if their daughters and wives had been raped and killed, if their sons had been killed, if their houses and overall their cities had been destroyed, if their life expectancy dropped as low as one day or less. Sum up propaganda and the fact that the perpetrators of all those acts were not only the agressors but were acting on the premise that their victims were subhuman and with full support by the State, which had the initiative to start all this in the first place.

You know well that most people don't act entirely rationally under normal circumstances, what can you expect of them under the stress and madness caused by all the abovementioned circumstances?

And even so, the retaliation was not only quite small in comparison to the suffering the perpetrators of said retaliation had been forcedto go through, said retaliation was proportional if not slightly less than proportional to the amount of people affected within the USSR.

That's a great problem I've found when arguing with Western people particularily from the Americas and particularily with centre and right-wing political views, about war and its effects. Most don't know what a war is like, have had few to non-existant contact with people that lived through it and their lack of empathy is seasoned with political correctness (in the case of liberal centrists) or with sheer lack of desire to even empathize and xenophobia (in the case of right-wingers). The conditions that people have to experience under invasions, military occupations and systematized prosecution and genocide are almost completely if not entirely alien to them. Summed up with a usual lack of understanding of how material conditions affect the development of the individual, they often excert shallow and incomplete judgements.


Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Saying that Russia was justified because they suffered more is tripe.

Of course. Tell me who is saying that it is justifiable and I'll engage in a rebuttal of his/her arguments.

Tyrong_Kojy wrote:

They suffered, and then they made other human beings suffer as well.

Certainly not all. The vast majority of those who suffered within USSR did not cause suffering within Germany.

Tyrong_Kojy wrote:

THery were just as bad, and just as evil, for that suffering. Damn the Red Army.

1. They were much fewer in proportion.
2. They were a minority within the Red Army.
3. The group they formed part of suffered far more and yet the majority of this group did not retaliate.

Tyrong_Kojy wrote:

Damn the German Army. Damn the Americans and English and Japanese.

Even within the ridiculous legal system of the bourgeoise state, at least in the USA, there's something called "mitigating circumstances" which, in some cases may serve to absolve the individual of guilt. I guess this pretty much applies here.

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alexCCCP-RUS-54321
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:47 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

USSR ( because "Russia" was hardly alone in this. Other soviet republics were completely conquered by Germany, more notably Ukraine and Belarus)
Oh yes, I'm referring to all the USSR. I will clarify that now. my dad told me stores of some of my Ukrainian relatives having to stow away in trucks, hiding for days with no food, escaping the Germans.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:28 am

alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:
Oh yes, I'm referring to all the USSR. I will clarify that now. my dad told me stores of some of my Ukrainian relatives having to stow away in trucks, hiding for days with no food, escaping the Germans.

I made that clarification just in response of Tyrong refering to Russia instead of USSR.

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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:37 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:
Oh yes, I'm referring to all the USSR. I will clarify that now. my dad told me stores of some of my Ukrainian relatives having to stow away in trucks, hiding for days with no food, escaping the Germans.

I made that clarification just in response of Tyrong refering to Russia instead of USSR.
Oh ok.
Btw, I donn't think there is anyone in Russia who doesn't have at least some other blood in them.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:38 am

alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:
Oh ok.
Btw, I donn't think there is anyone in Russia who doesn't have at least some other blood in them.

If what you mean is that there are no "pure Russians" or if they're there are very few, that's true.

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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:42 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
alexCCCP-RUS-54321 wrote:
Oh ok.
Btw, I donn't think there is anyone in Russia who doesn't have at least some other blood in them.

If what you mean is that there are no "pure Russians" or if they're there are very few, that's true.
How can there be a pure Russian? I don't think its possible. I myself am Russian, Ukrainian, Jewish, German,... so many. And If I married another Pure Russian- if there is one, our children wouldn't be pure Russian.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:57 am

Little off topic, no?

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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:59 am

CoolKidX wrote:
Little off topic, no?
its possible
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:06 am

CoolKidX wrote:
Little off topic, no?

Somewhat, but still relevant when talking about that country.

Either way I'm still expecting a reply to my "wall o' text", hoping it arrives before Monday.

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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:08 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
CoolKidX wrote:
Little off topic, no?

Somewhat, but still relevant when talking about that country.

Either way I'm still expecting a reply to my "wall o' text", hoping it arrives before Monday.
Products usually ship next 1-2 business days. However, they sometimes still get broken when shipping.
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PostSubject: Re: How badly were the Russians treated by the Nazis   Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:26 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Somewhat, but still relevant when talking about that country.

Either way I'm still expecting a reply to my "wall o' text", hoping it arrives before Monday.
Il try.

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