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 The advocates of ignorance and stupidity

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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:00 am

A couple of days ago Tyrong sent me a link to a video of one of those I call "Youtube's militant atheists". That's not quite a proper generalization but well, that's the main these guys have in common.

So well, this group of individuals often engage in discussions against religion and overall belief in god. Many do have valid points in these regards and I must say that overall I'm not quite against their stance in regards to religion and of some, in regards to belief in god (as you may know I'm agnostic).

Many of these claim to be reasonable and logical people, that is, they believe themselves, or at least so it seems, some sort of "guardians of reason and truth".

However, when it comes down to asess economics and such, conversations go downhil and many of them end up being as equally stubborn, ilogical and unreasonable as the creationists and fanatics they criticize so staunchly.

Most of these are often from centre-right capitalism apologists to libertarians (the worst of all indeed).

So well... what does it all have to do with the title of teh thread?

Well, back to the video Tyrong sent me a link of, there the author expresses, among other things, that it pisses him off when people tell him things like "what was in USSR was not communism" because, like many persons, he "knows" that what was in USSR was communism. This of course due to ignorance in regards to the term and its etymology.

I decided to engage in a discussion there and I ended up having to deal with one Danish guy that argued that the meaning of communism has changed throughout the time to the point that in Denmark even the authorities had agreed to a new efinition and that taht's why, at least in Danish "communism" means something different than it does in say English, Spanish or Russian.

After a couple strawman fallacies by this guy the discussion turned into a debate about how the language is constantly evolving as denoted by the constantly varying meaning of words and that since humanity is inherently irrational and ilogical, words could not have "constant" meanings.

Then the author of the video intervented to throw in yet another strawman fallacy.

All in all these guys diverted from a discussion about "communism" and its etymology to a false discussion where,a ccording to them I deny that languages evolve.

Basically, my stance towards these guys is that they simply justify stupid and unnecessary actions like arbitrarily changing the meaning of words dettaching them from the concepts for which they were created and thus alienating the population from the concept the word was refering to.

In my view this is part of what Gramsci would call "cultural hegemony" and part of what would conform some sort of "Newspeak" where words are just arbitrarily changed by the mainstream means of information difussion to better suit the interests of the ruling class.

In the case debated on the video's comment section, I contend that the word communism dettached from its original concept and attached to something different would mean that the message expressed by communist authors would not get to people if it was attached to a flawed system like USSR's.

In my view, these guys justify what I call "conceptual jamming", that is changing the code of the message to another message so the recepient gets a completely different message from what the one that emited the message meant.

In this particular case, people today hear "communism" and immediately associate it to the USSR, Cuba, Pol Pot and what not (of which they also do not have sufficient information) and think "that is communism, it is flawed so we don't want it" cancelling the possibility for many to actually read the writting of communist authors and overall understand what communism stands for.

This has happened not only with communism but with socialism, anarchism and democracy which, after a closer look, are virtually synonimous among each other:

Communism classless and stateless system where the means of production are owned by everyone within the community.
If everyone owns the means of production, then everyone has the same authority over land and property as the rest and that no one governs over the other or has right to determine the other's fate. Rules are decided by the members of the community altogether and such. This means that communism is naturally anarchic, and that the people are who have the power, thus democratic. If socialism is understood as a system where the means of production belong to th producers, that is the workers and the community is that of the workers then by extention it is also communism.


If there are no private owners of the means of production, and thus the economy, then how can someone de facto govern over others? If things are owned by the workers, ultimately meaning that they are the ones who make the decisions on how they'll be used meaning that no one else but them can, how is a state possible within such a framework when it would factually have no faculty at all? (Capability to coerce the workers in any way would defacto mean that means of production are being owned by the state) If the wokers are what composes the people and they're who have the power how can this not be democracy?


Anyway, that's another discussion.

The point is that often words are detached of the concepts they represent after these concepts have gainsed support in oderd for support to be harnessed by another concept through the theft of the term the most clear exaple being Democracy.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:51 am

I do ahve to lean on Decha's side, in a way. As he says, it all sounds to him like the no true scotsman fallacy. YOU might not think so, but....

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:19 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
I do ahve to lean on Decha's side, in a way. As he says, it all sounds to him like the no true scotsman fallacy. YOU might not think so, but....

And that's just a silly posture if you ask me.

It's as simple as this:

Guy comes up with the idea of a system where there are no social classes, no state and where means of production are directly owned and run by the community. He invents a term to refer to this system this term being "communism", therefore the advocates of this idea are communists.

If later a guy comes up with the idea of a system where most means of production are owned by the state, some are privately owned but higly taxed and regulated by the state and where most workers work for the state and he decides to call this communism, he's applying to this system that does not resemble communism at all the term "communism" a term that already refers to another concept.

It's not like "it's not true communism" or "honest communism" and what not, it's simply not communism just like a bannana is not an apple or a car is not a motorcycle. It's not that a banana is not a real apple, it simply isn't an apple.

If "A" stands for "X+Y+Z", then X+Y+Z is A.
If I come up with "B+C+Z", that is something else and calling it "A" would inconveniently distort the meaning of A and interfere with the reception of the X+Y+Z message by others.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:02 am

Yes, but dude, most opf these systems called themselves communism, and the entirety of the world calls them communism. So to most, saying they're not real communism is like saying a Mormon isn't a Christian. No true Scotsman.. Even if they really aren;t Christian/communist, as far as most are concerned they are. It really is something you have to kinda accept. Yes, argue against it, but don't be surprised, or angered, when it happens.

They called themselves communist. And so, whether you like it or not, they fall under that category in popular usage of the word. In fact, give it ten years and the actual meaning of the word will change to such.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:15 am

communism = niceland on steroids, if this result is not produced it can't be communism because you know it works because it dose in theory.

communism = inefficency curruption and human rights becoming nothing is what communism really dose it provide a reletive ammunt of security to most but takes away all liberty.

capitalism on teh other hand doesn't try to look good it doesn't "predict" utopia it's just a fucking theory that seems to work pretty fucking well for most.
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:42 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
Yes, but dude, most opf these systems called themselves communism,

Not even this is true. It was of general knowledge within the USSR, Warsaw Pact countries, China, Cuba, South Yemen, Ethiopia, Vietnam etc. that the system they had was "Socialism" given the Leninist understanding of that word.

Who called themselves that way were the leaders because they aspired to achieve communism in accordance to their understanding of "Marxism-Leninsm" and is derivates like Stalinism, Maoism and such.

The whole idea that "communism" existed within this countries comes merely from western media and leadership, not even from those governmental groups that refered to themselves as "communist".

TK wrote:

and the entirety of the world calls them communism.
Neither is this true. As I told you, it's of common knowledge in former "Communist" Party lead countries that the system that existed there was "socialism" (again, given Lenin's usage of the word). This means that people from these countries do not call that "communism" but socialism. Communism is rather seen by them as an unaccomplished goal or a goal to accomplish.

And as I said, the usage of this term in the west is entirely product of western countries' media and leaderships manipulating at will the term.

Both postures are product of equal misinformation and ignorance.

TK wrote:

So to most, saying they're not real communism is like saying a Mormon isn't a Christian.

The arguement is never "they're not real communists" the arguement is always "Just as peanuts are not oranges, these self proclaimed communists are not communists".


TK wrote:

No true Scotsman.. Even if they really aren;t Christian/communist, as far as most are concerned they are.

And that's simply because they're ignorant in regards to the definition and/or tenets of christianity, communism, democracy and what not.

Just as silly postures like racism, xenophobia and such are based on ignorance, the political discrimination against communists and the whole misunderstanding of the communist movement and theory is due to ignorance.

TK wrote:

It really is something you have to kinda accept.
As much as I'll accept that someone says that Germans are superior to Zimbabweans or that a person that eats pork is a Jew.

TK wrote:

Yes, argue against it, but don't be surprised, or angered, when it happens.

I'm not angered, I just find it as stupid as when a guy tells me that evolution is "just a theory" thus invalid or when I'm told that cakes are cars.

TK wrote:

They called themselves communist.
And yet not their system.

TK wrote:

And so, whether you like it or not, they fall under that category in popular usage of the word.
A totally incorrect usage of the word based on lack of information, disregard for etymology and overall ignorance.

TK wrote:

In fact, give it ten years and the actual meaning of the word will change to such.

Which would be a complete and unnecesary stupidity, a blatant act for the preservation of ignorance and misinformation that could only serve to further the interests of those who require a docile mass of workers deprived of critial thought.

mattabesta wrote:
communism = niceland on steroids, if this result is not produced it can't be communism because you know it works because it dose in theory.

It's not necesary for a theory to be valid for it to work in practice. Yet, if that's all so unexpendable to you, it was worked in practice.

mattabesta wrote:
communism = inefficency curruption and human rights becoming nothing is what communism really dose it provide a reletive ammunt of security to most but takes away all liberty.

This all being completely false by any documented account.

mattabesta wrote:
capitalism on teh other hand doesn't try to look good it doesn't "predict" utopia it's just a fucking theory that seems to work pretty fucking well for most.

How does it work for most when nearly 90% of teh world's population is sunk in poverty thanks to it?

It doesn't even work for most capitalists who are prone to get fucked up by the cyclic cicises intrinsic to capitalism.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:14 pm

in denmark when you say communist people usually think of the marxist-leninist communist party which get about 500 votes every election or something like that.
here a better word for what communism really is, would be: Left-Socialism or translated to English: Left-communism.

its the around-parliamentaristic tactics and the tactics of the united-front which representates my stand on left-communism

also when people refer to communism they think about the hammer and sickle. the hammer and sickle symbol was invented in 1917 during the October revolution in Russia, so is the hammer and sickle a Leninist symbol?
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:12 pm

Quote :
that the system they had was "Socialism" given the Leninist understanding of that word.
Which most of the world thinks of as communist, or leading to it. I few minutes of study on it showsthat it's not, and can even be administered into capitalism, which you know I'm all for but it leans toward there.

Quote :
Who called themselves that way were the leaders because they aspired to achieve communism
So as I said, they called themselves communist.

Quote :
And as I said, the usage of this term in the west is entirely product of western countries' media and leaderships manipulating at will the term.
And so, to most, they were communist. That's all I'm saying.

Quote :
The arguement is never "they're not real communists" the arguement is always "Just as peanuts are not oranges, these self proclaimed communists are not communists".
Using the current meaning of the word in most countries on the planet, yes, it is like using the no true scotsman.

Quote :
And that's simply because they're ignorant in regards to the definition and/or tenets of christianity, communism, democracy and what not.
Dude, I have to agree with Decha. Even if it meant one thing back then, the meaning has changed. I know you don't like it, and by all means keep using it as the original, but face it.

Quote :
political discrimination against communists
I wouldn't say discrimination. Most I;'ve talked to admit that the countries most consider communist were failures, not because communism doesn't work, but because they were done wrong.

Quote :
"just a theory"
One of the things we're trying to prevent is the changing of the word theory to ONLY mean a hypothesis, which is possible if we do nothing.

Quote :
A totally incorrect usage of the word based on lack of information, disregard for etymology and overall ignorance.
So? Go ahead and educate, but with how it's going, the word's meaning is gonna change. Or it will be spelt differently, or somesuch. They made Grrrl a word. They'll do it to communism, too.

Quote :
It's not necesary for a theory to be valid for it to work in practice.
But if it doesn;t work in practice, the theory is wrong. I'm not arguing anything, I just wanted to point that bit out. Alex is back, and all.

Quote :
How does it work for most when nearly 90% of teh world's population is sunk in poverty thanks to it?
I think we have very different meaning of the word "poverty". Lower middle class to middle class, yeah. That's not poverty.

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Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
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I,
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:28 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
I few minutes of study on it showsthat it's not, and can even be administered into capitalism, which you know I'm all for but it leans toward there.

Exactly, a few minutes of study.

TK wrote:

Quote :
And as I said, the usage of this term in the west is entirely product of western countries' media and leaderships manipulating at will the term.
And so, to most, they were communist. That's all I'm saying.

Teocrats also spread a lot of bullshit who millions bought until some, risking their lives, went against that bullshit.

TK wrote:

Quote :
The arguement is never "they're not real communists" the arguement is always "Just as peanuts are not oranges, these self proclaimed communists are not communists".
Using the current meaning of the word in most countries on the planet, yes, it is like using the no true scotsman.

Using the ignorance-induced term in Western Europe and Anglosaxon America, perhaps yes. In the former USSR, former Warsaw Pact, China, North Korea (yup, even there), Cuba, India, Iran and several other countries, nope. Doesn't seem like a majority to me, in fact it'd be fair to call that a minority.

And again, it's an ignorance-induced use of the term. I don't respect ignorance, I battle it.

TK wrote:

Quote :
And that's simply because they're ignorant in regards to the definition and/or tenets of christianity, communism, democracy and what not.
Dude, I have to agree with Decha. Even if it meant one thing back then, the meaning has changed. I know you don't like it, and by all means keep using it as the original, but face it.

And I stand by the same, this is merely product of ignorance, misinformation and manipulation and I don't have tolerance to that.

TK wrote:

Quote :
political discrimination against communists
I wouldn't say discrimination. Most I;'ve talked to admit that the countries most consider communist were failures, not because communism doesn't work, but because they were done wrong.

That's where there actually is a "no true scotsman" fallacy. It's not that tehy were done wrong, they were not done at all.

TK wrote:

Quote :
"just a theory"
One of the things we're trying to prevent is the changing of the word theory to ONLY mean a hypothesis, which is possible if we do nothing.

Precisely what I'm doing - not doing nothing against such an idiotic phenomenon as that.

TK wrote:

Quote :
A totally incorrect usage of the word based on lack of information, disregard for etymology and overall ignorance.
So? Go ahead and educate, but with how it's going, the word's meaning is gonna change. Or it will be spelt differently, or somesuch. They made Grrrl a word. They'll do it to communism, too.

One's got to fight for truth.

TK wrote:

Quote :
It's not necesary for a theory to be valid for it to work in practice.
But if it doesn;t work in practice, the theory is wrong. I'm not arguing anything, I just wanted to point that bit out. Alex is back, and all.

Totally agree, that's why you have to make clear distinctions between cases in which the theory has been actually practiced and cases in which it has not been put to practice. And in the cas eof communism, the theory was not put to practice.

TK wrote:

Quote :
How does it work for most when nearly 90% of teh world's population is sunk in poverty thanks to it?
I think we have very different meaning of the word "poverty". Lower middle class to middle class, yeah. That's not poverty.

In Mexico 50 million people eat in average 3 times a week, the vast majority leaves in an extremely precarious condition. Most of the working class suffers prolongued water shortages. If this happens in a counry that ranks among those with the 20 highest GDPs how might that be in most of Subsaharian Africa, or a massively populated India and such? Tell me if that's not poverty.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:22 am

Quote :
In Mexico 50 million people eat in average 3 times a week, the vast majority leaves in an extremely precarious condition. Most of the working class suffers prolongued water shortages. If this happens in a counry that ranks among those with the 20 highest GDPs how might that be in most of Subsaharian Africa, or a massively populated India and such? Tell me if that's not poverty.
I just find it VERY difficult to find the number 90% is what I mean. 50-60, maybe.

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Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
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I,
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:33 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
I just find it VERY difficult to find the number 90% is what I mean. 50-60, maybe.

I consider poverty or a "poor life quality" anything that falls between lack of coverage for basic needs to poor income. That is from homeless and unemployed to minimum wage workers. Here in Mexico no less than 85% of the population qualify as such. Certainly in places like Africa this number is higher.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:26 pm

And in others, like Canada, t's significantly lower, like 8%, which I'm fairly sure scews your number heavilly. Even farmers in China can live fairly confortably, and even have enough food to sell.

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Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
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I,
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Will stop her.
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:08 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
And in others, like Canada, t's significantly lower, like 8%,which I'm fairly sure scews your number heavilly.

Countries like Canada, aside from a minority in the world, also count with quite small populations. So no. In fact countries like Canada slightly amount to less than 10% of the world's population.

TK wrote:

Even farmers in China can live fairly confortably, and even have enough food to sell.
Which doesn't mean that a fair share of Chinese do not live in quite precarious conditions.

Such poverty is widespread all over Africa, Latin America, Middle East and South Eastern Asia, notably India, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Pakistan with most subsaharan countries having almost 100% of their population within such a condition and the rest no less than, in average, 70-80%. Being also notable that a fair amount of these countries tend to have from double to as much as 4 or 5 times more population that countries like Canada, being thus a greater share of the world population.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:18 pm

Quote :
Such poverty is widespread all over Africa, Latin America, Middle East and South Eastern Asia, notably India, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Pakistan
Which isn;t the majority.

Now. most of these countries tend to be run by dictators, usually heavilly religious, fighing guerillas and other rebels, or being in other wars. And yes, they have a larger populace, but I refuse to beleive that the number is as high as 90.

Besides, good portions of these coutries live what would be considered lower middle to middle class lives.

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Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
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Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:37 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Now. most of these countries tend to be run by dictators, usually heavilly religious, fighing guerillas and other rebels, or being in other wars. And yes, they have a larger populace, but I refuse to beleive that the number is as high as 90.
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:34 am

Tyrlop wrote:
Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Now. most of these countries tend to be run by dictators, usually heavilly religious, fighing guerillas and other rebels, or being in other wars. And yes, they have a larger populace, but I refuse to beleive that the number is as high as 90.

Well said Tyrlop
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:01 am

What did that have to do with what I said? The contras thing? Because that doesn't mean every president is the equivalent of a dictator, and anyway, I said most, not all.

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Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
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Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:13 am

Nothing I agree that its off topic, I just liked the video Sad
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:19 am

Oh. Well yes, the video WAS entertaining. Very well done, better than most.

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Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
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Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:24 pm

George Orwell wrote:
The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought—that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc—should be literally unthinkable...

This was done partly by the invention of new words, but chiefly by eliminating undesirable words and by stripping such words as remained of unorthodox meanings, and so far as possible of all secondary meanings whatever.

To give a single example. The word free still existed in Newspeak, but it could only be used in such statements as ‘This dog is free from lice’ or ‘This field is free from weeds’. It could not be used in its old sense of ‘ politically free’ or ‘intellectually free’ since political and intellectual freedom no longer existed even as concepts, and were therefore of necessity nameless.

Quite apart from the suppression of definitely heretical words, reduction of vocabulary was regarded as an end in itself, and no word that could be dispensed with was allowed to survive. Newspeak was designed not to extend but to diminish the range of thought, and this purpose was indirectly assisted by cutting the choice of words down to a minimum.


Worth adding to the discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:30 pm

Interesting, except that's never happened. I hear free, for example, used as such all the time.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:20 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
Interesting, except that's never happened. I hear free, for example, used as such all the time.

That's an excerpt from George Orwell's 1984 and it's intended to be an analogy to what it's going on currently.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:48 am

Ah. Except it's not happening. But I get it.

I've never actually read/seen that, actually. I look and look, but it's nowhere.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:04 am

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
I've never actually read/seen that, actually. I look and look, but it's nowhere.
1984?
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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Tyrong Kojy wrote:
Ah. Except it's not happening. But I get it.

When concepts are deprived of the terms attached to them, which is what your youtube god-debunking fellows I'm talking about are doing and/or defending, this is happening.

Most understand democracy not as democracy but as something else, therefore people like them say that democracy doesn't mean democracy anymore, the same happens with communism and many other words.

This is an attempt against the integrity of language and communication as a whole aside from an unnecesary and non-beneficial practice that just furthers ignorance. Only someone with the interest of hampering humanity's development would find defensible such a phenomenon.

TK wrote:

I've never actually read/seen that, actually. I look and look, but it's nowhere.

Here.

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PostSubject: Re: The advocates of ignorance and stupidity   Today at 10:42 am

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