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 Why is this the image people think of

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nillerz
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:37 am

Ryom wrote:
nillerz wrote:
That's all well and good but you're also capable of paying for college yourself, and it's not the governments job to do that. Allow the government to pay for your education and you're giving them more power than I feel comfortable with allowing them to have. As I said, their job is national defense from foreign invasion an prosecution of criminals, as well as money and roads. Banks will pay for your education, if it pays off, you will be able to pay for it no problem.
College (im going this summer Razz ) is free here, i wanna have them pay for my books in uni, and you say that if they pay then they will be given to much power for you liking, then i ask you dont you trust your own government? i mean i dont like mean but that dosent mean i dont trust it, and if you dont trust your government then you need some new guys. you say your governments job is to prevent foreign invasion, who would invade you ? i mean isnt that a ¨Cold War¨ priority?. and i must say the bank idea is a kinda good idea BUT then your education would be a corporate thing, and a corporation except your to pay them back or work it back, and what if it dosent work out? and if a person have financial problems then the bank wouldnt give that person money, because they would see it as throwing money down the drain
No I don't trust my government, they have no reason to do their job properly. Banks do. Yeah, you'll need to pay them back, but the rest of us won't and frankly I don't want to pay your way through college, which would end up happening if Gov't paid for college. High taxes are bad taxes.

Just look at history to see countless examples of people trusting their government and getting raped because of it.

Quote :
Education should be controlled by the state not the private sector, if education was in the hands of the free market the result would be that only people from wealthy backgrounds would be able to progress through society.This would cause a range of different problems ie socio economic inequality.Certain groups within society would fall victim to the lack of opportunity and develop a 'ghettoized' mindset which would present itself in crime, unemployment ect.
The government would just mess it up. If education was in the hands of the private sector, competition between schools would force them to provide better education at lower costs, and banks would have to compete for the lowest interest on student loans. Also, I didn't come up with the "studet loan" idea, because it's the working system. It's the difference between a private school and a public school Private schools cost money but are better.If every school was a private school, then private schooling would be cheap as hell.

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The gov function to give all citizens equal opportunity and help society as whole to develop and progress in a healthy fashion.
Fix your fragments. That's not a government function, it's too intrusive.

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The social democracies of the EU have been proven to be far better than the right wing polotics of the US. We have higher standards of living, lower poverty and FAR less crime ect. Our socialist policies have been proven to benefit 'all' in society. Unfortunate that the US still suffers a cold war hangover.
Right, but we have more freedom. That's more important to me.
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nillerz
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:40 am

Steel wrote:
Do you really expect to be taken seriously, for anyone to bother with you when you make comments like this:

Quote :
I hear them, I just don't acknowledge them. Difference.

Quote :
So you're not trying to seperate yourself from stalin, you like being in the same boat as him?

You are not carrying out this discussion in a way that fosters reasonable debate.
Acknowledging what is possibly the dumbest statement in this entire thread is a waste of time.

Also, if he doesn't want to be put in the same boat as Stalin, why did he say he doesn't want to distance himself from him? Is he not acknowleging him? That's a tad different from me not acknowleging a silly statement.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:27 am

the problem with having education in the private sector is that if a bank pays for your education wich in my case will last about 9 years, if the competition during those 9 nine years is being to tuff the bank might close and ill stand there with no possible way of paying the rest of my education, and there still is the possibility of a bank cartel wich means we have no choice but to pay what ever price they ask for, were if a government does it they will must likely not get re-elected, and that will be a bad thing for them. and you say you dont want to pay for my education, thats fair enough, but see it like this if my education cost 100.000 then that would be divided by the number of people who pays taxes, and that will not result in a high number. i never go to church put pay church tax, why ? because some people really need a place to whorship ¨god¨ and find inner rest and churches is just part of my culture, so even tho they do no good to me i still gladly pay for them because they are really important to someone. and this country has never ever been raped by the government and highly doubt it ever will be raped by the government, just not our thing. and nillerz i feel sorry for you that you cant trust our government
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Steel
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:17 am

Quote :
Acknowledging what is possibly the dumbest statement in this entire thread is a waste of time….

How is the statement dumb? I even told you WHY I do not consider it socialist, now either you provide me with evidence to the contrary or we will have to conclude that it was in fact a very sensible statement. What you have not done is 'not acknowledged' my statement as true, and proceeded to demonstrate why, you have simply ignored it and continued to attack a position I do not hold, and a regime I do not support.


The view that the Soviet Union was State Capitalist, rather than socialist or communist is about as old as the Soviet Union itself, in other words Stalin is irrelevant.

Quote :
Nor is this 'state-capitalist' label a new invention, to distance present socialist/communist parties (and it is by no means adopted by the majority of them) from the crimes of Stalin etc., the Socialist Party of Great Britain are the best example, maintaining that the USSR/Russian revolution was state capitalist and not socialist even whilst the anarchists were joining the Bolsheviks (Victor Serge being the most famous).

Quite clearly you cannot distance yourself from Stalin’s crimes before he committed them.
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:11 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
There was an original one that says "When you download music, you're downloading communism"

Ya, that's the excuse i use when i'm caught.

"But officer, I was just trying to download communism."

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nillerz
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:20 am

Ryom wrote:
the problem with having education in the private sector is that if a bank pays for your education wich in my case will last about 9 years, if the competition during those 9 nine years is being to tuff the bank might close and ill stand there with no possible way of paying the rest of my education, and there still is the possibility of a bank cartel wich means we have no choice but to pay what ever price they ask for, were if a government does it they will must likely not get re-elected, and that will be a bad thing for them.
Banks would NEVER form a cartel. That's... unAmerican!

Also, that's where preparation comes in. Sure, events can screw you, but the government is exceptionally good at it. You really should consider that brief glance at any portion of history anywhere, it will tell you some amazing things about governments

Quote :
and you say you dont want to pay for my education, thats fair enough, but see it like this if my education cost 100.000 then that would be divided by the number of people who pays taxes, and that will not result in a high number.
Multiply by the number of people the Goverment is paying for. It's cheap to send 1 to college, but hundreds of thousands?

Quote :
i never go to church put pay church tax, why ?
I think they call it a "tithe"

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because some people really need a place to whorship ¨god¨ and find inner rest and churches is just part of my culture, so even tho they do no good to me i still gladly pay for them because they are really important to someone.


I'm not going to fund causes I'm against. You go nuts, but why do you need the government to force you to?

Quote :
and this country has never ever been raped by the government and highly doubt it ever will be raped by the government, just not our thing.

You're kidding right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsd#Government_research

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_tears
Just to provide a few. Also, modern Patriot act is a good example.

Quote :
and nillerz i feel sorry for you that you cant trust our government

I never thought people like you actually existed. You're so blissfully ignorant of how much power our government has, and what they're capable of. Your family must be way more patriotic than is healthy. Our government hasn't proven itself competent, and hasn't provent that it is capable of going a month without corruption presenting itself. Blind faith in someone you have little effect on is just stupid.

Quote :
How is the statement dumb? I even told you WHY I do not consider it socialist, now either you provide me with evidence to the contrary or we will have to conclude that it was in fact a very sensible statement.

First off, you use "communist" and "socialist" interchangably, as do I. Before you were born, it was agreed that Stalin's regime was communist. The country was called the Socialist republic. If you don't like them, call yourself a marxist or something.

Quote :
What you have not done is 'not acknowledged' my statement as true, and proceeded to demonstrate why, you have simply ignored it and continued to attack a position I do not hold, and a regime I do not support.

The Sun is not a glowing ball of gasses.


Quote :
The view that the Soviet Union was State Capitalist, rather than socialist or communist is about as old as the Soviet Union itself, in other words Stalin is irrelevant.
When discussing communism, Stalin is always relevant, being the biggest butcher of the 20th century and a commie bastard.

Quote :
Quote :
Nor is this 'state-capitalist' label a new invention, to distance present socialist/communist parties (and it is by no means adopted by the majority of them) from the crimes of Stalin etc., the Socialist Party of Great Britain are the best example, maintaining that the USSR/Russian revolution was state capitalist and not socialist even whilst the anarchists were joining the Bolsheviks (Victor Serge being the most famous).


Quite clearly you cannot distance yourself from Stalin’s crimes before he committed them.

Elaborate your point, I don't get what you're on about.
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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:33 am

Quote :
Before you were born, it was agreed that Stalin's regime was communist.

And it was agreed by who? Oh I don't know...

Uncle Sam and his "allies"? Do I see other communists agreeing the Soviet Union was "communist" or "socialist"? Hmm, nope.

Read more Karl Marx and you can see he wanted capitalism to be replaced with a more democratic system where everybody would be treated like a family member AKA communism.

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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:15 am

Quote :
The government would just mess it up. If education was in the hands of the private sector, competition between schools would force them to provide better education at lower costs, and banks would have to compete for the lowest interest on student loans. Also, I didn't come up with the "studet loan" idea, because it's the working system. It's the difference between a private school and a public school Private schools cost money but are better.If every school was a private school, then private schooling would be cheap as hell.

Quote :
Right, but we have more freedom. That's more important to me.



First, I should tell you that the theory that private means better is nothing more than a self serving 'myth' of the private sector. Take for example your private health system, it ranks behind 'all' of the nationalized systems in Europe - world health organization. France ranks 1st on earth.
In addition some of the finest schools in Europe are public ones. Making education private would only ensure that children of rich backgrounds recieve the best while poorer people would be forced to attend the worst schools.


As for freedom depends what you mean. Most nations in Europe have much higher freedom of press ie less censorship. Prostitution is legal in many nations, In the UK if your caught with marijuana for personal use you cannot be arrested and in Holland its totally legal, so is getting ecstacy tested outside nightclubs ect.

So what do you mean by freedom ? Political freedom ? We have democracy here too believe it or not.The freedom to buy a gun ? I think thats about the only way you are any 'more' free.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:46 am

first of Yank (nillerz) im not American (and im happy im not) so all your little wiki links is pointless and your government is f**ked up, i luckily live in a country with a history of nothing but good governments, and your cute little ¨Patriot act¨ has no effect here. And the cartel is still a possibility, i bet you would say that Cpusa is un-American as well, then yet again they have members. and on the church tax thing its pretty simple, they dont force me, we have this thing called ¨the public church¨, it makes me entitled to a few things like having a wedding in a church and asking a priest for advice in his spare time etc. and for that the tax is paid, if dont want use the perks or pay the tax i simply leave the ¨The public church¨ and then of course leave the perks as well. so the government dont force me, if dont wanna pay i dont have to.
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nillerz
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:46 am

inkus2000 wrote:
Quote :
The government would just mess it up. If education was in the hands of the private sector, competition between schools would force them to provide better education at lower costs, and banks would have to compete for the lowest interest on student loans. Also, I didn't come up with the "studet loan" idea, because it's the working system. It's the difference between a private school and a public school Private schools cost money but are better.If every school was a private school, then private schooling would be cheap as hell.

Quote :
Right, but we have more freedom. That's more important to me.



First, I should tell you that the theory that private means better is nothing more than a self serving 'myth' of the private sector. Take for example your private health system, it ranks behind 'all' of the nationalized systems in Europe - world health organization. France ranks 1st on earth.
In addition some of the finest schools in Europe are public ones. Making education private would only ensure that children of rich backgrounds recieve the best while poorer people would be forced to attend the worst schools.
Yes, Euro hospitals are better. Doesn't change the fact that there's freedom in our system. Hospitals may set their prices wherever, and that's their right. If you don't like it, don't use the hospital. Or, better, start your own hospital. Just because there are lives on the line doesn't mean it gives the government of all bodies the right to regulation. As for schooling systems, our public school system is shit. This is coming from someone who lives in NY, the top rated state for schools. It's total shit. Shit shit shit shit shit shit shit. The schools would be better if they had angry customers. No, they can just have Angry Albany.


Quote :
As for freedom depends what you mean. Most nations in Europe have much higher freedom of press ie less censorship. Prostitution is legal in many nations, In the UK if your caught with marijuana for personal use you cannot be arrested and in Holland its totally legal, so is getting ecstacy tested outside nightclubs ect.

So what do you mean by freedom ? Political freedom ? We have democracy here too believe it or not.The freedom to buy a gun ? I think thats about the only way you are any 'more' free.
Freedom, to me, means being able to do anything so long as it doesn't inflict bodily harm to another person or their property. That means, you may purchase a gun, buy a hooker, smoke weed, shoot heroine, and other things. I hate how my government, the American government, censors and destroys these activities. It shouldn't condone them, it should just allow them. In short, I do not condone our governments restrictive activities.

Ryom: I demand an apology for calling me a "yank". For future reference, we hate yankees.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:45 pm

i have no intention of apologizing to you for calling you a yank, let me elaborate, to me a yank is a united states citizen, no more, no less. im not the only one many people i know refer to the average American citezin as a yank, to you (please do correct me if im wrong) a yank is a Northerner.

i found this which i think exsplains it pretty well

To foreigners, a Yankee is an American.
To Americans, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To Easterners, a Yankee is a New Englander.
To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter.
And in Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast


i dont mean yank as a bad word, its just what you are
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:39 pm

In America Yank or Yankee is a derogative term meant to hurt people.

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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Re: Why is this the image people think of   Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:45 pm

mononokifool wrote:
In America Yank or Yankee is a derogative term meant to hurt people.

It's funny that most Southerners still call Northerners "Yankees" but whenever another person does it, here comes the "oh noes". XD

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