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 Incentive in a Communist society ?

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Is communism against human nature ?
Yes
31%
 31% [ 9 ]
No
52%
 52% [ 15 ]
Undecided
17%
 17% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 29
 

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inkus2000
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:20 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
So what is your program for the world oh hero of integrated worker's rights

Socialism through reform, gradual nationalization of the means of production ect

Socialist partys in the developed world don't have enough support now but with global recession things will change.

satisfied, oh great scholar of Marxist thought ?
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:27 am

what of other countries, the equality of races, sexism, third world countries, imperialist war?

can reform alone defeat such things?

I see Ireland still has a poverty rate
what's being done to abolish that?

How will it be taken care of in countries that have historically become incredibly reactionary in times of great class struggle?

Simply beg?

What do you offer to me? A black man in america? How will reforms address the material conditions that feed racism? How will the institutions of power be equally distributed? Are you going to force the ruling class to produce for me by begging?

What of women? that make 75 cents to every man's dollar, what of the reactionary institution of the family that further perpetuates monogamy and female subordination?

What of your bosses? the ones that will inevitably take their business over seas to avoid giving liveable wages? What will be done to stop the inherent imperialism in the ruling class? Will you force them to stop seeking new markets through reform? Will they not defend their profits with the CAPITALIST state you have?

What is to be done for the oppressed?
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:56 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
what of other countries, the equality of races, sexism, third world countries, imperialist war?

can reform alone defeat such things?

I see Ireland still has a poverty rate
what's being done to abolish that?

How will it be taken care of in countries that have historically become incredibly reactionary in times of great class struggle?

Simply beg?

What do you offer to me? A black man in america? How will reforms address the material conditions that feed racism? How will the institutions of power be equally distributed? Are you going to force the ruling class to produce for me by begging?

What of women? that make 75 cents to every man's dollar, what of the reactionary institution of the family that further perpetuates monogamy and female subordination?

What of your bosses? the ones that will inevitably take their business over seas to avoid giving liveable wages? What will be done to stop the inherent imperialism in the ruling class? Will you force them to stop seeking new markets through reform? Will they not defend their profits with the CAPITALIST state you have?

What is to be done for the oppressed?



Ireland has a poverty rate true but many organizations work to alliviate poverty esp religious ones and our poverty rate is one of the lowest on earth. People who live below the poverty line are mainly drug addicts ect people within the system are cared for, unfortunately some slide through the cracks.

Americas problems are fucked up beyond all recognition the best advice I could give you is vote Obamma. lets face it your socialist party wont get in any time soon but its a step in the r/ i mean left direction. The poor in the US need to unite under a common cause, I think the prob with the US is that the working class is divided due to racism and kept ignorant by those in power through subtle propaganda.

Even if you had a social democracy a lot of the problems you mentioned would fixed, then people could move on to socialism. Those in power will fight to maintain the age old religious racial and sexual hierarchys their method is to keep the poor divided and distacted.

As for the third world - the conditions for revolution exist, its only a matter of time before they reach boiling point.

Socialist reformists have done a lot for Europe - compare the condition's now to condition's in the early 1900's. Reform is slow but sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:59 am

You just told me to vote for a capitalist man that wants military bases and troops in the middle east and a man that blames blacks for their own oppression and will do nothing to level out the playing field because he believes it already is...
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:11 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
You just told me to vote for a capitalist man that wants military bases and troops in the middle east and a man that blames blacks for their own oppression and will do nothing to level out the playing field because he believes it already is...

look you can vote for a man who wont invade another country, or you can vote for a man who prob will - OR you could waste you vote on a party who wont get elected ie socialist party - think about it.

Obama sez that stuff to get idiots to vote for him.
He's a social dem on the inside i tellz ya -

He cant SAY he hates white rednecks when he wants them to vote for him he has to find some middle ground to get the upper hand.

In any case he would ease the overall American attitude towards the moderate left wing.

Then once the red gates are open reform! reform! reform ! Hmmmumahahahhha!!!! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:23 am

We aren't trying to get elected

we are trying to build a worker's vanguard

We just trying to get votes like an opportunist...

jesus christ

You claim to have an understanding of the classes yet you don;t even know the basics about the ruling class. This isn't a matter of foreign policy capitalism NEEDS new markets and imperialism is the export of finance capital, if the ruling class pulls out completely of the mid east (no candidates have that policy) then they will be dooming their future profits....


seriously, what makes you different from a common liberal
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:32 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
We aren't trying to get elected

we are trying to build a worker's vanguard

We just trying to get votes like an opportunist...

jesus christ

You claim to have an understanding of the classes yet you don;t even know the basics about the ruling class. This isn't a matter of foreign policy capitalism NEEDS new markets and imperialism is the export of finance capital, if the ruling class pulls out completely of the mid east (no candidates have that policy) then they will be dooming their future profits....


seriously, what makes you different from a common liberal




I believe in nationalizing the means of production and the gradual implementation of a planned socialist economy. First the free market needs to be more gov regulated.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:36 am

And the capitalists are merely going to take that?

The Capitalist State defends the ruling class and will never just peacefully turn over their private property to the workers and socialize their own property that brings them profits. You can't REFORM the RULING class into submitting for it is a democracy OF the Ruling class. Democracy for the workers is merely an illusion.

Good luck pressuring the ruling class into nationalizing their own profits.

How idealist and Utopian you are...

you are trying to change the system within the system

you're a goddamn liberal
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:59 am

The working and lower middle class make up the majority of the population, the majority rule in a democratic society, and if Marx's theory is correct then the all other class's will become extinct and be forced to join the Proletariat.

Liberals favor the free market we want to restrain the market and implement standards that prevent exploitation and act in the overall interest of the working class. If it wasn't for social democrat reformists wage slavery, child labor and massive social inequality would still exist. European Social democrats nationalized healthcare, education, transport, post, energy supply, created welfare systems, implemented minimum wage laws and workers rights, set up labor courts ect .What have you 'true Marxists' done for the working class within your 'own' nations and communities, ? - NOTHING other than wave your red flag around and preach.

Death to the bourgeoisie !
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:03 am

inkus2000 wrote:
The working and lower middle class make up the majority of the population, the majority rule in a democratic society, and if Marx's theory is correct then the all other class's will become extinct and be forced to join the Proletariat.

Liberals favor the free market we want to restrain the market and implement standards that prevent exploitation and act in the overall interest of the working class. If it wasn't for social democrat reformists wage slavery, child labor and massive social inequality would still exist. European Social democrats nationalized healthcare, education, transport, post, energy supply, created welfare systems, implemented minimum wage laws and workers rights, set up labor courts ect .What have you 'true Marxists' done for the working class within your 'own' nations and communities, ? - NOTHING other than wave your red flag around and preach.

Death to the bourgeoisie !

we certainly haven't put a left face on capitalism, thats for damn sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:05 pm

Man, it's amazing how you can miss three pages worth of posting just being gone for, what, twelve hours or so?

Quote :
Death to the bourgeoisie!

A literal death will be the only thing that parts them from their wealth.

Quote :
the majority rule in a democratic society

The US isn't democratic. I don't know where you are, but here, our country is run by lobbyists under the pay of large corporations (or the bourgeoisie, if you prefer). Hell, here in Denver, we voted to legalise marijuana, and we won the vote... but it doesn't count for shit because we can't change federal legislation; it's just impossible. So the only thing that changed was now the cops nice cops are more sympathetic, so instead of writing you a ticket, they throw your quad down the sewer... pigs

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:10 pm

He is saying that we are screwed and should just vote for obama...

he lives in iceland

and ignored my quote about the ruling class having the ability to take rights away.

Hell as long as there is an international Bourgeoisie, the ruling class in ICELAND will always have more power than you no matter what kind of political majority you guys have.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:00 pm

MarxistFreeman wrote:
He is saying that we are screwed and should just vote for obama...

he lives in iceland

and ignored my quote about the ruling class having the ability to take rights away.

Hell as long as there is an international Bourgeoisie, the ruling class in ICELAND will always have more power than you no matter what kind of political majority you guys have.
So is it better to just sit around and not do anything. Or in the mean time vote for someone who will help the working class?

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:33 pm

mononokifool wrote:
So is it better to just sit around and not do anything. Or in the mean time vote for someone who will help the working class?

Any of this so-called "help" for the working class is just reformism and will only help to appease the working class for a short time, and at the same time make them more docile and complacent. I have no problem with revolutionary reform, but all this legitimate political posturing isn't going to help shit (and it may just hurt our cause).

And no, we don't sit around and do nothing; a lot of us on this site are politically active. But voting democrat as opposed to republican will be just as atrocious. Let the imperialists fight between themselves, we have more important work to do.

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Last edited by NoJustice.NoPeace on Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:35 pm

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:
mononokifool wrote:
So is it better to just sit around and not do anything. Or in the mean time vote for someone who will help the working class?

Any of this so-called "help" for the working class is just reformism and will only help to appease the working class for a short time, and at the same time make them more docile and complacent. I have no problem with revolutionary reform, but all this legitimate political posturing isn't going to help shit (and it may just hurt our cause).

Hmmm I never really thought of it that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:37 pm

^^ sorry, made an edit while you were responding.

And no offense to you; i, unlike others (who shall remain nameless), know you're trying to do the right thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:40 pm

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:
^^ sorry, made an edit while you were responding.

And no offense to you; i, unlike others (who shall remain nameless), know you're trying to do the right thing.
I think most of us are trying to do the right thing, we just have different time frames and different ways of going about it

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:41 pm

Before I get metaphorically crucified by everyone in here, I should mention that I think a Communist system is not a bad idea at all, and I don't think a "true" Communist system has ever existed, so it is naive to make presumptions about a Communist government based solely on the ones we have seen in history.

Nevertheless, the reason I had to vote "yes" is because I do think it goes against mankind's nature, but for this argument, we must assume that human nature is a bad thing, driven solely on immediate desires and actions that benefit only yourself. I don't think humans, much less any other creatures in the world, by nature, have a maternal extinct for other human beings that are not of their own kin; it takes the intelligence and compassion that we all possess, that common animals do not, to have a sense of empathy for our fellow man. Capitalism breeds the competitive, territorial nature that all living creatures possess, and is, thus, more consistent with human nature. But Communism overcomes that.

So Communism does go against human nature, but this is a good thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:30 pm

WeiWuWei wrote:
Before I get metaphorically crucified by everyone in here, I should mention that I think a Communist system is not a bad idea at all, and I don't think a "true" Communist system has ever existed, so it is naive to make presumptions about a Communist government based solely on the ones we have seen in history.

Nevertheless, the reason I had to vote "yes" is because I do think it goes against mankind's nature, but for this argument, we must assume that human nature is a bad thing, driven solely on immediate desires and actions that benefit only yourself. I don't think humans, much less any other creatures in the world, by nature, have a maternal extinct for other human beings that are not of their own kin; it takes the intelligence and compassion that we all possess, that common animals do not, to have a sense of empathy for our fellow man. Capitalism breeds the competitive, territorial nature that all living creatures possess, and is, thus, more consistent with human nature. But Communism overcomes that.

So Communism does go against human nature, but this is a good thing.

You are mistaken my friend, Prove to me what Human nature is. I believe capitalism conditions humans to act selfishly while Communism is human nature.

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:12 am

mononokifool wrote:
I believe capitalism conditions humans to act selfishly while Communism is human nature.

Communism is family. Simple as that. :3c

But yeah, capitalism does breed the "dog-eat-dog" nature in humans. Eventually, I fear it'll overtake and strip the world of resources to the point of no return.

Then what? What will be next when there is just profit and no resources? Will human trafficking increase just to satisify the sick twisted needs of capitalists? What will happen to whole families and friends? Will they become torn apart just to make a dollar for the capitalist?

I don't want that to happen. EVER. Communism must be worldwide! It is now evident more than ever that communism MUST replace the imperialistic and leeching tendency of capitalism. Just look at the enviroment! What will be next after it's FUBAR?

People of the world UNITE!

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:16 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
He is saying that we are screwed and should just vote for obama...

he lives in iceland

and ignored my quote about the ruling class having the ability to take rights away.

Hell as long as there is an international Bourgeoisie, the ruling class in ICELAND will always have more power than you no matter what kind of political majority you guys have.


Lets get something clear, i 'don't' disagree with your ideological veiws I support them , however you need to 'wake up' - SOCIALIST REVOLUTION WILL NOT TAKE PLACE IN THE US ANY TIME SOON - the proper class antagonism does not exist and the economy is too good, even if the people had 'class awareness' they would need to be under sufficient economic pressure to revolt. Reforms through social democracy are your 'only' option at this point in time.

And spare me the it wont do any good routine - For one I can go to collage for free because of those so called 'useless' reforms.

NO ONE will vote for a party of radicals who run up and down the main st waving red flags while screaming 'death to the capitalist pigs'. Let me guess, you don't intend on election ? I suppose you and your band of merry men are going to spark the 'great international proletariat revolution' ? I suppose you have sufficient arms and well drawn up battle plan ? What city to you plan to liberate first if you don't mind me asking ? New York ? LA ? oh no wait .......thats top secret isn't it ?

Youd better get to work - revolutions don't plan themselves and I think I hear people crying for bread outside the Whitehouse.

If you need me Il be over here pushing for solid reforms that actually benefit the lives of working men and women.

Let me know how that revolution works out anyway.


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:50 am

Revolutino as I said earlier is almost inevitable. So make fun all you want but when judgment day the revolution comes, you'll be sorry. Repent, ye sinner! lol jk
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:01 am

yeah cuase jesu/ allah/ god jsut loves comunists
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:03 am

Pannekoek wrote:
Revolutino as I said earlier is almost inevitable. So make fun all you want but when judgment day the revolution comes, you'll be sorry. Repent, ye sinner! lol jk


Yea book me a place in one of those re-education camps would you,
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:36 am

Alright

lets further obscure the class line and confide in the capitalist rulers

sweet

awesome plan

"Marxists!BREAK!"
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