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 Incentive in a Communist society ?

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Is communism against human nature ?
Yes
31%
 31% [ 9 ]
No
52%
 52% [ 15 ]
Undecided
17%
 17% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 29
 

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:21 am

Quote :
Not liking work is known in social psychology as social loafing and exists when a person within a group realizes that to exert oneself carries no individual reward
It carries no reward becused it is alienated labor.

Quote :
White collar crime - corruption ect
Corruption of government can't exist when there is no government. Fraud, embezzlement, stealing can't exist without money and private property.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:36 am

Quote :
It carries no reward becused it is alienated labor.

What do you mean by alienated labor ?


Quote :
White collar crime - corruption ect
Corruption of government can't exist when there is no government. Fraud, embezzlement, stealing can't exist without money and private property.[/quote]

Cant exist without private property ? People could steal state resources for personal use.

Before you reply, don't say - no one would steal because everyone could have everything they want - that's unrealistic, people can only consume as much as is being produced and under communism production would be based on need.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:05 am

Quote :
Not liking work is known in social psychology as social loafing and exists when a person within a group realizes that to exert oneself carries no individual reward.

Again, the reward is not dying or being exiled.

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What do you mean by alienated labor ?

Making the worker sell his labour, effectively taking away his pride as he becomes no better than a commodity.

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Well first, slave society came before feudalism.

Ya, i said pre-feudalism because i knew it was before it. I wasn't saying it was right before.

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People were in power in this stage, tribes had leaders which where either elected or chosen based on bloodline.

I concede this point. I was thinking more in terms of society today, which has no comparison.

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women who are percieved as more attractive are worth more commodities ie pigs, chickens ect. A womans father will then effectively 'sell' her to the highest bidder, this practice is commonplace in tribal society the world over.

You have effectively proven that men are horny; tell me something i don't know. This doesn't prove anything about a "nature" of greed.

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:33 am

Quote :
Again, the reward is not dying or being exiled.

'Capital punishment is never justified under communism' - Karl Marx

Quote :
Making the worker sell his labour, effectively taking away his pride as he becomes no better than a commodity.

Does socialism not require workers to hand over 'all' items produced to the commune in place of the capitalist. Does the worker not then become an instrument of communal production as opposed to an instrument of the capitalist production ?

In each case the worker would become alienated from the fruits of his labor since he would have no personal claim over what he produced.

Although it would be more just that he work for the common good I think the problem of alienation would still exist.

Explain how the self employed suffer alienation in the absence of the capitalist ? - their hardly exploiting themselves.


Quote :
You have effectively proven that men are horny; tell me something i don't know. This doesn't prove anything about a "nature" of greed.

You missed the point. The father sells something of perceived value in order to obtain material profit for his own 'enrichment'.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:22 am

Quote :
'Capital punishment is never justified under communism' - Karl Marx

I don't consider myself a marxist, so that means nothing to me. Nor is that what i meant. I mean that if someone refuses to work, he shall not eat (one of the few bible passeges i agree with).

Quote :
Does socialism not require workers to hand over 'all' items produced to the commune in place of the capitalist. Does the worker not then become an instrument of communal production as opposed to an instrument of the capitalist production ?

Socialism is not communism. There may still be some exploitative methods during socialism. I, personally, don't really believe in the necessity for a socialist transition, but for those who do, they believe it is impossible to go straight from capitalism to communism, so there will still be some capitalist ideas in practice at that point.

Quote :
Explain how the self employed suffer alienation in the absence of the capitalist ? - their hardly exploiting themselves.

That's not enough information for me to answer that. Is he/she an owner of business? An artist?

Quote :
You missed the point. The father sells something of perceived value in order to obtain material profit for his own 'enrichment'.

Even if this is greed, per se, that still brings up the question as to why it is only him.

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:32 am

in my opinoin communism rewuires for all people to allow to be eqal and to relinquish thier wealth. as we all now being equal to most people does not sound good to most people. they want to achive more than average. also why work if all you get is wat you need. in a typical society people wan more than whatwe need(example. giant cars. first class on airplanes. more than one tv.. comunism is definatly against the human nature
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:35 am

Quote :
I don't consider myself a marxist, so that means nothing to me. Nor is that what i meant. I mean that if someone refuses to work, he shall not eat (one of the few bible passeges i agree with).

What direction do you lean in Maoism ?

Quote :
Socialism is not communism. There may still be some exploitative methods during socialism. I, personally, don't really believe in the necessity for a socialist transition, but for those who do, they believe it is impossible to go straight from capitalism to communism, so there will still be some capitalist ideas in practice at that point.

Socialist transition is already underway, 'pure' capitalism has not existed in the industrialized world since ww1-ww2.

I know the defenitions, I asked about the alienation theory to see if he understood.

Quote :
That's not enough information for me to answer that. Is he/she an owner of business? An artist?

Not a capitalist.

An 'individual' who produces a commodity places a value upon it and sells it. Such as an artist yes. People like this hardly suffer alienation from their labor since they own their means of production and enjoy the fruits of it - no one collects the surplus as a profit so exploitation does not occur.

Quote :
Even if this is greed, per se, that still brings up the question as to why it is only him.

No, this type of activity is widespread in tribal society - tribes often waged war for land rich in resources and took slaves ect.

This is important since Marx maintains that problems such as alienation greed ect did not exist prior to the creation of the class system which came with the development of settled agricultural society.Hunter gatherer societies still exist and many problems such as war power struggles ect exist within them. This 'could' be taken as an indication that greed is a constant therefore part of human nature and although it can be tempered their are people who will always want more than they need.

If greed was part of human nature this would not mean that 'all' people would be greedy, homosexuality is part of human nature - this does not mean that everyone is homosexual, in fact it may be only small portion of the overall population.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:24 pm

Quote :
also why work if all you get is wat you need
In communism you don't get only what you need. You take as much as you want from the store. Marx was using need as the same thing as want when he said "from each according to ablility to each according to need."

In socialism you get back the full value of your labor minus tax. I guess you could argue that's slight alienation still but in socialism if you don't work you don't get paid so working is not on a voluntary basis yet. In communism you have the freedom to take back as much as the value of your labor but don't have to, so if you don't get it, it is not because you are alienated but because you chose not to consume much. That means in communism there is no alienation so people will enjoy the labor that they do voluntarily.

Quote :
Socialist transition is already underway
False. Free market capitalism may not exist but capitalism still does. Socialism is only established when instead of the capitalists oppressing the workers, it's the other way around.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:26 pm

How long has this thread been here without me noticing?

Don't try to avoid the question with "what is human nature" because human nature is what people generally do. Striving for the betterment of a nation isn't something in my interests unless I not only get recognition for my work and reap rewards from it that suit me. So, for the communists in this thread, I have a question: What are the last 3 charitable things you did?

I can name them now.

-Currently building a benefit site for a girl with Leukemia who needs help with medical expenses

-Shared a pizza with my friends, my treat

-Donated my hair to an organization that makes wigs for people with certain cancers.

But I'm not getting PAID for these things! I did it out of the goodness of my heart!

Bullshit.

-I mention the benefit website whenever I can so people go "Wow, what a great person!" and like me more.

-My friends like me more because of the pizza, and reward me in pot.

-I show old pictures to people and they are like "Where'd your hair go?" Then, I explain.

Charity is human nature, when not demanded. Is helping each other the right thing to do? Absolutely. Am I likely to do it if you try to force me to? Absolutely not. The simple fact is people rarely go out of their way for the betterment of others unless they can brag about it. If everyone is working for the betterment of the commune, no one is real happy about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:31 pm

nillerz wrote:
Don't try to avoid the question with "what is human nature" because human nature is what people generally do. Striving for the betterment of a nation isn't something in my interests unless I not only get recognition for my work and reap rewards from it that suit me. So, for the communists in this thread, I have a question: What are the last 3 charitable things you did?

Are you trying to snare me into bragging? Cos that's what this post sounds like. So if i tell you, you can say i did it for bragging rights, and if i don't... What? you'll say i'm not charitable, not a good person?

Quote :
I can name them now.

-Currently building a benefit site for a girl with Leukemia who needs help with medical expenses

-Shared a pizza with my friends, my treat

-Donated my hair to an organization that makes wigs for people with certain cancers.

But I'm not getting PAID for these things! I did it out of the goodness of my heart!

Bullshit.

-I mention the benefit website whenever I can so people go "Wow, what a great person!" and like me more.

-My friends like me more because of the pizza, and reward me in pot.

-I show old pictures to people and they are like "Where'd your hair go?" Then, I explain.

Wow, that's pretty messed up. You will only do something when it is to your benefit?

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Charity is human nature, when not demanded.

What charity, you didn't involve yourself in any charity; you did those things to beef up your ego. Don't bullshit me.

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Is helping each other the right thing to do? Absolutely.

I don't believe you in the slightest.

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Am I likely to do it if you try to force me to? Absolutely not.

I'm sorry, but i don't see how this pertains to the topic at hand.

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The simple fact is people rarely go out of their way for the betterment of others unless they can brag about it.

I'm appalled by this.

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If everyone is working for the betterment of the commune, no one is real happy about it.

Why? You wouldn't be starving, you wouldn't have any needs uncared for, you wouldn't be stressed wondering if you'll have your job in the next month. Look at all the abundance in america alone, and imagine it spread between all the people of the country; we'd all be living comfortable middle class lives (if not upper-middle class [obviously i'm using the term 'class' in the demented american version of the term])

Quote :
What direction do you lean in Maoism ?

I'm not a MLM-ist. If you mean how do i feel about MLM-ism, then i'd say i appreciate Mao's military genius and thoughts on guerilla warfare, but other than that, i don't adhere to his ideals (not to mention i don't think Stalin was a 'true' communist leader)

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Socialist transition is already underway

haha, says who? And what country are you in?

Just because a country isn't 'pure' (whatever that means) capitialist, doesn't mean they are moving towards socialism.

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Not a capitalist.

That's still not enough. A "capitalist" isn't necessarily rich, but believes in and/or perpetuates the ideas and practices of capitalism. I know some poor capitalists.

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An 'individual' who produces a commodity places a value upon it and sells it. Such as an artist yes. People like this hardly suffer alienation from their labor since they own their means of production and enjoy the fruits of it - no one collects the surplus as a profit so exploitation does not occur.

Not everyone in a capitalist society is alienated from their labour. It could be debated that they are still exploited (though i won't engage in that argument), but how many of these people actually exist?

Quote :
comunism is definatly against the human nature

You haven't proven anything about human nature though. Until you do, this argument is ineffective, and essentially, null.

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:05 pm

wow we have all dont charitable things but can you live your whole life like that. like communism asks you to. i think not
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:08 am

Who said in communism people will be helping others without caring about yourself is necessary? If that were the case, communism would not work.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:05 am

comunis in theory is amazing. but it usualy is followed by a totalitarionsim gov
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:46 am

You are referring to USSR, China, north korea, etc. Those were all capitalist nations. Real socialism is waaay more libertarian than capitalism and communism has no government at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:57 am

you are talking about a dream. communsism and socialsim call for acts that are nt in uman nature and in theory its good, but it will never come ot be
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:04 am

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:
nillerz wrote:
Don't try to avoid the question with "what is human nature" because human nature is what people generally do. Striving for the betterment of a nation isn't something in my interests unless I not only get recognition for my work and reap rewards from it that suit me. So, for the communists in this thread, I have a question: What are the last 3 charitable things you did?

Are you trying to snare me into bragging? Cos that's what this post sounds like. So if i tell you, you can say i did it for bragging rights, and if i don't... What? you'll say i'm not charitable, not a good person?

Right, implying that you do charitable things but then saying "I don't brag though" isn't reaping your own reward from the helping of others.

A more convinving route would be "Well, since you asked, I did ___"

Now you're just as guilty as me.


Quote :
Quote :
I can name them now.

-Currently building a benefit site for a girl with Leukemia who needs help with medical expenses

-Shared a pizza with my friends, my treat

-Donated my hair to an organization that makes wigs for people with certain cancers.

But I'm not getting PAID for these things! I did it out of the goodness of my heart!

Bullshit.

-I mention the benefit website whenever I can so people go "Wow, what a great person!" and like me more.

-My friends like me more because of the pizza, and reward me in pot.

-I show old pictures to people and they are like "Where'd your hair go?" Then, I explain.

Wow, that's pretty messed up. You will only do something when it is to your benefit?

No, I do stuff then afterwards find a way to benefit. Usually it just breaks down into "bragging". Bragging is awesome. It makes the world go round. It builds you up. It builds those around you up.

Quote :
Quote :
Charity is human nature, when not demanded.

What charity, you didn't involve yourself in any charity; you did those things to beef up your ego. Don't bullshit me.

That's why everyone does charity. Even you. You just pretend that you don't so that people think "wow so modest". At least I have the balls to admit it.

Quote :
Quote :
Is helping each other the right thing to do? Absolutely.

I don't believe you in the slightest.
It's the wrong thing to do? Sheesh, harsh.

Quote :
Quote :
Am I likely to do it if you try to force me to? Absolutely not.

I'm sorry, but i don't see how this pertains to the topic at hand.

Taxes = forced charity.

Quote :
Quote :
The simple fact is people rarely go out of their way for the betterment of others unless they can brag about it.

I'm appalled by this.
You're guilty of this.

Quote :
Quote :
If everyone is working for the betterment of the commune, no one is real happy about it.

Why? You wouldn't be starving, you wouldn't have any needs uncared for, you wouldn't be stressed wondering if you'll have your job in the next month. Look at all the abundance in america alone, and imagine it spread between all the people of the country; we'd all be living comfortable middle class lives (if not upper-middle class [obviously i'm using the term 'class' in the demented american version of the term])
You used to live with a caretaker. Did you always do what they said? Did you keep your room clean? Did you put forth as much work as they did? No, no child ever has.

In short, stop trying to make me look evil just because I tell the truth about human nature. You all know it's true. That pleasant feeling you get after doing something nice? That's your payment. You wouldn't do it if you didn't feel good. If everyone is doing it, what you're doing isn't special. This is the biggest flaw in communism. It assumes that there are decent, well-meaning people in this world.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:39 pm

nillerz wrote:
Right, implying that you do charitable things but then saying "I don't brag though" isn't reaping your own reward from the helping of others.

A more convinving route would be "Well, since you asked, I did ___"

Now you're just as guilty as me.

Maybe you should try to write more clearly, because this really doesn't make any sense.

You setting petty traps says nothing about my character or my "guilt". And what are you saying i'm guilty of? You're lack of understanding of sentence structure and complete thoughts is making it very hard to debate with you.

Quote :
No, I do stuff then afterwards find a way to benefit. Usually it just breaks down into "bragging". Bragging is awesome. It makes the world go round. It builds you up. It builds those around you up.

And you think bragging is illegal in a communist society? Brag all you want, but it just makes people annoyed.

Quote :
That's why everyone does charity. Even you. You just pretend that you don't so that people think "wow so modest". At least I have the balls to admit it.

It's not charity if you do it for yourself. At least understand the definition of the word before you use it.

Quote :
Quote :
Quote :
Is helping each other the right thing to do? Absolutely.

I don't believe you in the slightest.
It's the wrong thing to do? Sheesh, harsh.

hahaha. No, i meant i don't believe that you think helping others is the right thing to do.

Quote :
Taxes = forced charity.

What taxes? again, i don't see how this pertains. I don't think anyone in this thread has even mentioned the word 'taxes'.

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You're guilty of this.

Cite your evidence please.

Quote :
You used to live with a caretaker. Did you always do what they said? Did you keep your room clean? Did you put forth as much work as they did? No, no child ever has.

What the hell are you talking about? Again i call into question your ability to stay on topic.

Quote :
In short, stop trying to make me look evil just because I tell the truth about human nature.

Again i call into question your understanding of language. Truth is fact. There are no 'facts' that point to the existence of human nature, in the way that you are using it.

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You all know it's true. That pleasant feeling you get after doing something nice? That's your payment.

... but you said weed and bragging was your payment.

Quote :
You wouldn't do it if you didn't feel good. If everyone is doing it, what you're doing isn't special. This is the biggest flaw in communism. It assumes that there are decent, well-meaning people in this world.

Okay, so first you say everyone is doing it, then you say there aren't decent, well-meaning people in the world. I think you should choose one argument and not contradict yourself.

And still, you have proven nothing about the nature of humans. To say there is human nature in this context is to say there must be something present in all humans at all times throughout history like the "stalk and pounce" in all felines.

Quote :
you are talking about a dream. communsism and socialsim call for acts that are nt in uman nature and in theory its good, but it will never come ot be

Again, if you want your argument to hold any weight, you must establish that 1) there is such a thing as human nature and 2) greed is a part of it. So far, no one's been able to do that (not even science).

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:59 pm

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:
nillerz wrote:
Right, implying that you do charitable things but then saying "I don't brag though" isn't reaping your own reward from the helping of others.

A more convinving route would be "Well, since you asked, I did ___"

Now you're just as guilty as me.

Maybe you should try to write more clearly, because this really doesn't make any sense.

Let me try.

Instea of being non-chalant and just answer the question in a regular way, you decided to call me out on a "trap". In the way you did this, you implied heavily that you do charitable works, but that you don't brag about them. A casual reader would see that and think "That man is both charitable and modest". You do that without even having done any charity. Sneaky bastard.

Quote :
You setting petty traps says nothing about my character or my "guilt". And what are you saying i'm guilty of? You're lack of understanding of sentence structure and complete thoughts is making it very hard to debate with you.

That wasn't a trap, but pretty much anything anyone says can be twisted into a noose by someone willing.

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No, I do stuff then afterwards find a way to benefit. Usually it just breaks down into "bragging". Bragging is awesome. It makes the world go round. It builds you up. It builds those around you up.

And you think bragging is illegal in a communist society? Brag all you want, but it just makes people annoyed.
"Guys! I TOTALLY just worked to my ability and only asked for what I needed in return! Up top!"

Doesn't seem the same. Bragging isn't always "Oh yeah, who DA MAN!?", in fact, that's it if they just won something. But, if they did something charitable, people tend to do a casual mentioned, followed by "It's nothing, I swear." while those around them just totally suck their cock for what they did. If you don't get an ego boost from it, you're not as inclined to do it in the future.

Also, it doesn't matter. if I know I can just get the best thing for myself from the store, without even having to work for it, I will. So will millions of other people. The people who will work for the betterment of a nation without reward are a very small group. That's why communism fails.

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That's why everyone does charity. Even you. You just pretende that you don't so that people think "wow so modest". At least I have the balls to admit it.

It's not charity if you do it for yourself. At least understand the definition of the word before you use it.

You aren't doing it for "yourself" you're doing it for that special feeling you get when you know you did someting nice, and for the amazing boost to your ego. You are. There isn't ANYONE, repeat, ANYONE who doesn't. Buddhist do it so they think they're holding true with the teachings of buddha, christians do it so they can feel really good about themselves. Every other group does it to.

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Quote :
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Is helping each other the right thing to do? Absolutely.

I don't believe you in the slightest.
It's the wrong thing to do? Sheesh, harsh.

hahaha. No, i meant i don't believe that you think helping others is the right thing to do.[/quote]If they are helping themselves and incapable of getting out of a hole, you should help them. I don't think you should help anyone not willing to help themselves,

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Taxes = forced charity.

What taxes? again, i don't see how this pertains. I don't think anyone in this thread has even mentioned the word 'taxes'.
All the fruits of your labor being taken away and given to the country? That sounds like taxing to me.

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You're guilty of this.

Cite your evidence please.
[/quote]
Se above

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You used to live with a caretaker. Did you always do what they said? Did you keep your room clean? Did you put forth as much work as they did? No, no child ever has.

What the hell are you talking about? Again i call into question your ability to stay on topic.
There's a reason they call it "Mother Russia"

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In short, stop trying to make me look evil just because I tell the truth about human nature.

Again i call into question your understanding of language. Truth is fact.

No, truth is sincerity. Fact is what' is in it's essence undebatable, the supreme state of being.
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There are no 'facts' that point to the existence of human nature, in the way that you are using it.
But there is truth.

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You all know it's true. That pleasant feeling you get after doing something nice? That's your payment.

... but you said weed and bragging was your payment.
There's alot of payment.

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You wouldn't do it if you didn't feel good. If everyone is doing it, what you're doing isn't special. This is the biggest flaw in communism. It assumes that there are decent, well-meaning people in this world.

Okay, so first you say everyone is doing it, then you say there aren't decent, well-meaning people in the world. I think you should choose one argument and not contradict yourself.
Completely took what I said way to literally. You understood what I meat, you just pretended not to in order to sound smarter.

The only way you'd be right is if nobody except 1 guy was doing it. He'd be very special, everyone would be like "wow, thanks for supporting our nation... Imma nap". A country can't survive that way. Otherwise, nobody gets payment.

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And still, you have proven nothing about the nature of humans. To say there is human nature in this context is to say there must be something present in all humans at all times throughout history like the "stalk and pounce" in all felines.
You can't approach humans like a math problem. They're too complicated. But this is what they generally do. one or two not doin gthis doesn't keep a world alive

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you are talking about a dream. communsism and socialsim call for acts that are nt in uman nature and in theory its good, but it will never come ot be

Again, if you want your argument to hold any weight, you must establish that 1) there is such a thing as human nature and 2) greed is a part of it. So far, no one's been able to do that (not even science).
It's impossible. Why? I exist. Hundreds of thousands of people like me exist. If EVERYONE supported communism, maybe. But, as long as I exist, communism is impossible. You can't force revolution on the unwilling, it's just cruel.
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:39 am

nillerz wrote:
NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:

Maybe you should try to write more clearly, because this really doesn't make any sense.

Let me try.

Instea of being non-chalant and just answer the question in a regular way, you decided to call me out on a "trap". In the way you did this, you implied heavily that you do charitable works, but that you don't brag about them. A casual reader would see that and think "That man is both charitable and modest". You do that without even having done any charity. Sneaky bastard.

No, i didn't. I merely asked the purpose of the question. And i implied nothing. Anything you inferred was your own doing.

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That wasn't a trap, but pretty much anything anyone says can be twisted into a noose by someone willing.

Then what was the purpose of your question?

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Also, it doesn't matter. if I know I can just get the best thing for myself from the store, without even having to work for it, I will. So will millions of other people. The people who will work for the betterment of a nation without reward are a very small group. That's why communism fails.

Why would i, or anyone for that matter, let you leech off my work? The reason for communism is to get away from the bloodsuckers. You keep that up and your bound to be exiled.

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You aren't doing it for "yourself" you're doing it for that special feeling you get when you know you did someting nice, and for the amazing boost to your ego. You are.

... And how is that not for yourself?

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I don't think you should help anyone not willing to help themselves

I thought your argument is that it's human nature to help yourself. So who are these hypothetical people who are not willing to help themselves?

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All the fruits of your labor being taken away and given to the country? That sounds like taxing to me.

You obviously have no concept of communism. And if you replace "country" with bourgeoisie, that's capitalism.

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You're guilty of this.

Cite your evidence please.
Se above

Are you just trying to make this debate more difficult, or do you not know how to cite? The quote option is there for a reason. Use it.

And i'll ask once more (though it seems futile since you refuse to answer), what am i guilty of?

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There's a reason they call it "Mother Russia"

Seems like you're drifting further from the subject, besides in no way addressing my question.

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Again i call into question your understanding of language. Truth is fact.

No, truth is sincerity. Fact is what' is in it's essence undebatable, the supreme state of being.

Okay, so you're being sincere. I concede. That doesn't, however, make you right. In fact, it in no way even contributes to you being right.

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There are no 'facts' that point to the existence of human nature, in the way that you are using it.

But there is truth.

Again, this doesn't prove anything. As you said before, truth in the way you're using it only means sincerety. My father is sincere about his belief that god exists; that doesn't mean he exists.

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Okay, so first you say everyone is doing it, then you say there aren't decent, well-meaning people in the world. I think you should choose one argument and not contradict yourself.


Completely took what I said way to literally. You understood what I meat, you just pretended not to in order to sound smarter.

No, that's not true. This is a serious debate, why would i not take the things my opponent says seriously.

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The only way you'd be right is if nobody except 1 guy was doing it. He'd be very special, everyone would be like "wow, thanks for supporting our nation... Imma nap". A country can't survive that way. Otherwise, nobody gets payment.

Right about what? One guy doing what? Charity? I'm not sure what this means in the context of what you quoted.

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You can't approach humans like a math problem. They're too complicated.

If we're so complicated, why do you think we're trapped in 'human nature'?

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But this is what they generally do.

And this can't be linked to society? Why must it be caused by some biological or genetic code?

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Again, if you want your argument to hold any weight, you must establish that 1) there is such a thing as human nature and 2) greed is a part of it. So far, no one's been able to do that (not even science).

It's impossible.

I agree, it is quite impossible to prove humans have a fundamental nature.

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But, as long as I exist, communism is impossible.

Now, see, that's one of those things that people say that just isn't true. Like, for instance, 'human nature exists'.

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You can't force revolution on the unwilling, it's just cruel.

I could say the same for wage-slavery. Looks like we're at a crossroads.

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--Karl Polanyi--
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:11 am

Quote :
In short, stop trying to make me look evil just because I tell the truth about human nature. You all know it's true. That pleasant feeling you get after doing something nice? That's your payment. You wouldn't do it if you didn't feel good. If everyone is doing it, what you're doing isn't special. This is the biggest flaw in communism. It assumes that there are decent, well-meaning people in this world.

Its has not been proven what human nature is. Your position is based on the 'assumption' that greed is part of human nature but this has never been proven. It would however be just as naive to say that it isn't part of human nature. Evidence exists to support both arguments.

It is true that humans act first in their own interest .The socialist perspective is that individuals will eventually realize that working for the collective 'is' in their individual interest since it creates abundance of supply and ensures survival.

Some people are naturally greedy the reasons usually vary, however it is true that capitalist culture promotes consumerist greed so that it becomes a social standard. Capitalist society naturally produces capitalist values and undermines other values such as egalitarianism and altruism.

Go to collage and take a course that has a future - Get a job that pays well, even if you hate it - Get a nice blonde girl once your pockets are fat - you don't have to love her, think of it as a buisness arrangement, you get sex in return for financial security - knock her up and get married - Buy a big house in the suburbs - buy two nice cars to demonstrate your status, she becomes a soccor mom. You have a nervous breakdown before 35

Why should I care about others
Why should I pay tax's to educate someone elses kids
Hard work is an American value. I work hard so I can get lots of money and buy stuff that makes me happy. ect ect Its all about 'getting ahead'
Oh shit Mr Johnson bought his wife a new car Id better get my wife one too.

The above is an example of a consumerist mentality forged by a capitalist society. - THE AMERICAN DREAM
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:55 pm

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It would however be just as naive to say that it isn't part of human nature. Evidence exists to support both arguments.

My position is that of the bulk of your argument, but this i have to refute. You're saying it's naive to want proof? I mean, there is evidence to support the validity of the bible being a holy book, doesn't mean it is. There is evidence to support the existence of god, doesn't mean he is. There is evidence that OJ is guilty, doesn't mean he is... Okay, maybe that was a bad example.

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It is true that humans act first in their own interest .

I agree, but there is a big difference between acting in self-interest and acting in greed. The concepts are related, but far from being the same.

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:50 am

Not all humans are the same. If there were some decent caring ones out there, then they would help but there are plenty of them like me. Since it's not universal either way according to you people but the fact taht people like me exist is blisteringly obvious by the fact that I exist communism is impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:59 am

nillerz wrote:
Not all humans are the same. If there were some decent caring ones out there, then they would help but there are plenty of them like me. Since it's not universal either way according to you people but the fact taht people like me exist is blisteringly obvious by the fact that I exist communism is impossible.

Communism does not adheer to the idea that everyone is equal, rather everyone should be treated equal.

Explain 'exactly' why you think communism would fail to function ?
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:00 am

inkus2000 wrote:

Communism does not adheer to the idea that everyone is equal, rather everyone should be treated equal.

THANK YOU INKUS!!! For many months I have constantly tried to explain this to my fellow friends but they all think, "No, communism FORCES people to do *whatever here*..."

I retort back, "Nowhere in true communism does it EVER say, "forced equality". People can choose in a communist society."

But they still don't listen. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:23 am

Jeiro Sijakeuigwan wrote:
inkus2000 wrote:

Communism does not adheer to the idea that everyone is equal, rather everyone should be treated equal.

THANK YOU INKUS!!! For many months I have constantly tried to explain this to my fellow friends but they all think, "No, communism FORCES people to do *whatever here*..."

I retort back, "Nowhere in true communism does it EVER say, "forced equality". People can choose in a communist society."

But they still don't listen. Sad




They prob judge communism based on cold war propeganda.
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