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 Incentive in a Communist society ?

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Is communism against human nature ?
Yes
31%
 31% [ 9 ]
No
52%
 52% [ 15 ]
Undecided
17%
 17% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 29
 

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inkus2000
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:25 am

Pannekoek wrote:
lol! lol!
Nice pwn. Sometimes I feel sorry for you, the only sane moderate in a forum full of radicals and moderates who are annoying spammers. (reffering particualarly to

Yea well I like radicals since I used to be one, howeva

I don't think change can come about via revolution in the developed world today as we are largely sheltered from the worst of capitalism and sufficient class antagonism does not exist.

Revolution can only work in a climate where 'severe' class antagonism caused by exploitation of the proletariat occurs.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:27 am

Quote :
I don't think change can come about via revolution in the developed world today as we are largely sheltered from the worst of capitalism and sufficient class antagonism does not exist.

Revolution can only work in a climate where 'severe' class antagonism caused by exploitation of the proletariat occurs.
Read Das Kapital this will cure your naive anti-revolutionary-ism.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:28 am

Pannekoek wrote:
It seems like the very poor people are very religious and the very rich conservatives also are. Easily explained if you understand Marxism. The rich are using as a tool to keep the workers from revolting and the poor are using it to console themselves and escape from the "heartless world".



The poor use religion as an escape, the rich use is because they feel guilty.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:28 am

or in our case as a reactionary technique of strengthening the capitalist state
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:30 am

Like media bullshit propaganda lies.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:36 am

Pannekoek wrote:
Quote :
I don't think change can come about via revolution in the developed world today as we are largely sheltered from the worst of capitalism and sufficient class antagonism does not exist.

Revolution can only work in a climate where 'severe' class antagonism caused by exploitation of the proletariat occurs.
Read Das Kapital this will cure your naive anti-revolutionary-ism.


Thing's have changed since 1867, socialist reformists have greatly improved the living standards of the working class. Marx holds that dire exploitation and class tension fuel revolution, neither of these exist in sufficent quantities in the developed world.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:37 am

But they will come again because of the laws of capitalism as described in das kapital.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:43 am

reforms are merely crumbs thrown to the working class so as to quell discontent and further obscure the class line. Reforms can be, will be, have been and are being taken away with a leftist face over it

Patriot act
Abortion
*add to list*
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:49 am

Pannekoek wrote:
But they will come again because of the laws of capitalism as described in das kapital.

Gov regulation of the market can prevent problems ie price setting ect, Marx refers to total free market capitalism.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:54 am

what do you think that will single handedly prevent problems in society?

and my last statement still stands
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:01 am

Quote :
[quote="MarxistFreeman"]reforms are merely crumbs thrown to the working class so as to quell discontent and further obscure the class line. Reforms can be, will be, have been and are being taken away with a leftist face over it


How much does collage tuition cost in the US ? because here its free.
Do you recieve free healthcare and dental care ? we do
Do people on low income recieve tax exempt status ? we do
How much is your minimum wage ? here its €8.65 per hour which is about $13.66 - on top of that we are by law entitled to a raise every few months.
We also have labor court's which protect our rights as well as unions .

These are not scraps, the reason we have such things is because the working class has power here.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:05 am

very true but class antagonisms cannot be abolished through reform

peaceful coexistence between classes is not possible
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:11 am

Quote :
Gov regulation of the market can prevent problems ie price setting ect, Marx refers to total free market capitalism.
False, false, flase. The state is a instrument of the Bourgeoisie. It doesn't regulate everyhting. Even today all or very nearly all prices are because of the labor theory.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:14 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
very true but class antagonisms cannot be abolished through reform

peaceful coexistence between classes is not possible




Maybe not totally abolished but reforms reduce them to the point where the working class no longer feels the need to revolt.

Abundance of oppertunity and lack of economic restraint leads to a merging of classes.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:16 am

NO. Your lies stem from a fundamental misunderstandance of Marxian economics.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:18 am

There MUST be a class to exploit and reforms up to that point will NEVER be given.

Even if the working class were to posses the ability to do such a thing, why wouldn't they take control of the means of production.

It isn't a matter of dividing up the pie evenly. It is a matter of the working class TAKING POWER. the Future you speak of is idealist and disregards the nature of the capitalist state.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:19 am

Marx proved that the profit will fall for the capitalists once the organic composition declines enough, thus impoverishing the workers, and creating perfect conditions for revolution.

Mark, have you studied marxian economics? Because economics I would say is my strong point.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:21 am

Pannekoek wrote:
Quote :
Gov regulation of the market can prevent problems ie price setting ect, Marx refers to total free market capitalism.
False, false, flase. The state is a instrument of the Bourgeoisie. It doesn't regulate everyhting. Even today all or very nearly all prices are because of the labor theory.


I don't think capitalism is sustainable so gov will eventually have to regulate the market more and more to stall collapse and in doing so make the transition to a planned economy. However this will not occur for a long time.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:24 am

it's sooner than you think when you take a close hard look at current international relations.

and that is no excuse to ditch marxist politics at the moment

WHORED QUOTE TEIMZ

"In this post-Soviet period, marked by a deep regression of proletarian consciousness, we continue to be guided by Trotsky's statement that "the task of the vanguard is above all not to let itself be carried along by the backward flow; it must swim against the current." Reforge the Fourth International, world party of socialist revolution!"
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:26 am

Quote :
MarxistFreeman wrote:
There MUST be a class to exploit and reforms up to that point will NEVER be given.

Even if the working class were to posses the ability to do such a thing, why wouldn't they take control of the means of production.

It isn't a matter of dividing up the pie evenly. It is a matter of the working class TAKING POWER. the Future you speak of is idealist and disregards the nature of the capitalist state.



You speak of class like it was 1890, class is a very lax term today people pass through the class system quickly due to more oppertunity and economic freedom.


Your argument could be applied to society's in the developing world but 'not'' in the developed world.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:29 am

It is because that we live in a time of little class conciousness that people like you speak like that.

that is exactly why reforms are given. To obscure the class line.

Are you saying there are no exploited people in your country?
no owners of the means of production?
no oppressed person?

And now you claim classes don't really exist in the developed world...

what poisonous filth is this?
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:40 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
It is because that we live in a time of little class conciousness that people like you speak like that.

that is exactly why reforms are given. To obscure the class line.

Are you saying there are no exploited people in your country?
no owners of the means of production?
no oppressed person?

And now you claim classes don't really exist in the developed world...

what poisonous filth is this?

Here lenin, people fought for those reforms this country was founded by socialist trade unions. Of course people own the means of production we are a capitalist country but social democracy is strong here. exploited ? in the Marxist sence yes, in that the capitalist takes the surplus of our labor as a profit - If you mean do people struggle to survive well then no - we have one of the best welfare systems on earth tied with norway and sweeden ect.


Classes do exist in the developed world however class tension is not strong enough to fuel revolution.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:47 am

Considering you don't even understand class struggle im not sure anything can be gained from this conversation. I wish you well on your quest for more reforms and i apologize for not realizing that your country is perfect in every sense of the word and is impervious to the class struggle that will inevitably consume your capitalist nation. It's no doubt that you are of the privileged.

Calling me Lenin is a compliment to me.

An injury to one is an injury to all. what are you doing to save all from oppression and exploitation?
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:09 am

MarxistFreeman wrote:
Considering you don't even understand class struggle im not sure anything can be gained from this conversation. I wish you well on your quest for more reforms and i apologize for not realizing that your country is perfect in every sense of the word and is impervious to the class struggle that will inevitably consume your capitalist nation. It's no doubt that you are of the privileged.

Calling me Lenin is a compliment to me.

An injury to one is an injury to all. what are you doing to save all from oppression and exploitation?




Lol

I understand the concept of class struggle perfectlly well, I think you misunderstand social dynamics you seem to think that social structure has not changed since the 1890's. Socialist transition will come but not until people become completely disenfranchised with capitalism after the economy hits rock bottom.

And no im a member of your beloved Proletariat trust me
Social democratic reforms have done much more for the us in Europe than
flag waving extremists who are completely out of touch with reality - most of them misguidied teens from rich famllys.
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PostSubject: Re: Incentive in a Communist society ?   Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:13 am

So what is your program for the world oh hero of integrated worker's rights
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