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oligarch
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PostSubject: Sustainable Development   Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:13 am

Capitalism is incapable of maintaining it largely because of the Law of Value.

Case and point: The current environmental crisis.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:52 pm

enviormental crisis?
I deney that humans are cusing global warming.
vater vapor is 98% of the greenhouse gases and we have only added 1% to the toatal of co2.
+ capitalsm has already found sulutions as soon as they pay off they will be used more.
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Diogritor
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:52 pm

mattabesta wrote:
enviormental crisis?
I deney that humans are cusing global warming.
vater vapor is 98% of the greenhouse gases and we have only added 1% to the toatal of co2.
+ capitalsm has already found sulutions as soon as they pay off they will be used more.
even I see that Global Warming is correct.. and Im an american
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:19 pm

oligarch wrote:
Capitalism is incapable of maintaining it largely because of the Law of Value.

Case and point: The current environmental crisis.

Another case and point: Capitalism (at least, in Us once again) is tearing down the structures (like nation-wide banks) to make more profit.

What's ironic is that those same measures deemed "pink" by Conservatives are the ones which prevented capitalism from collapsing in the first place. Razz

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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:07 am

Laissez-faire capitalism inevitably collapses into itself and that is why government intervention is required to prevent the market cyclically collapsing by allocating and reallocating capital that would otherwise be horded by the capitalist class.

Marx sums up how capitalism is incompatible with sustainable development rather well in this quote.

"Capitalist production, by collecting the population in great centres, and causing an ever-increasing preponderance of town population, on the one hand concentrates the historical motive power of society; on the other hand, it disturbs the circulation of matter between man and the soil, i.e., prevents the return to the soil of its elements consumed by man in the form of food and clothing; it therefore violates the conditions necessary to the lasting fertility of the soil.... all progress in capitalistic agriculture is a progress in the art, not only of robbing the labourer, but of robbing the soil; all progress in increasing the fertility of the soil for a given time, is a progress towards ruining the lasting source of that fertility... Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original resource sources of all wealth- the soil and the labourer."
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:20 pm

Sustainable Development: It can't be done because there are limited resources, and at the rate that imperialism is moving, it will collapse in on itself within the next century.

Simply put, the earth itself cannot sustain another hundred years of capitalist pillaging. Even if they tried to implement some form of technocracy, they would drive themselves crazy worrying about their profits dropping through the floor.

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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:48 pm

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:
Sustainable Development: It can't be done because there are limited resources, and at the rate that imperialism is moving, it will collapse in on itself within the next century.

Simply put, the earth itself cannot sustain another hundred years of capitalist pillaging. Even if they tried to implement some form of technocracy, they would drive themselves crazy worrying about their profits dropping through the floor.

I like you.
this is why we need the moon,venus,mars and mercury all are rich in iron and other good and valuebel metals. gentelmen we'r hedin to space.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:40 pm

mattabesta wrote:

this is why we need the moon,venus,mars and mercury all are rich in iron and other good and valuebel metals. gentelmen we'r hedin to space.
Lol good luck geting to Venus, on Venus there is clouds and rain of sulfuric acid, the atmospheric pressure is equivalent to 1 km under the under Earth's oceans surface, and its funny you say venus when we are talking about global warming becouse Venus has the strongest greenhouse effect in the solar system, creating surface temperatures of over 460 °C
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:22 am

Ryom wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

this is why we need the moon,venus,mars and mercury all are rich in iron and other good and valuebel metals. gentelmen we'r hedin to space.
Lol good luck geting to Venus, on Venus there is clouds and rain of sulfuric acid, the atmospheric pressure is equivalent to 1 km under the under Earth's oceans surface, and its funny you say venus when we are talking about global warming becouse Venus has the strongest greenhouse effect in the solar system, creating surface temperatures of over 460 °C
The moon should be a fine place to mine. If it is truely from Earths mantle then it should have more then rocks and dust but metal too. And whats cooler then a space outpost. I also like the idea of Colonising Mars just in case something happens to this planet we wont go extinct.
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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:16 am

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how capitalism is capable of causing any kind of environmental effect. Is it not a phylisophy?It is not capitalism, it would be many, many other issues. And let's say hypotheticaly global warming is real, which I think it is, though not quite at the level of the propoganda. A moot point, ultimately. Money isn't the cause. It's the people, and what we're doing. If it's not real, there's other environmental issues to deal with, like overall pollution and deforestation. These are real issues, that have a lot of proof of their exsistance. And if, let's say for the sake of argument, emissions, do not cause global warming. They [/i]do screw up the air we breath. This is not capitalsm. Well, okay, perhaps in the followig way it is. Clean fuel sources do exist, they are simply being kept quiet to make more mone off of oil. However, when we run out, and we will, and it will happen sometime soon, if we don't nuke each other off the face of the planet, both Russia and America, and whoever else has nukes, over the last vestiges, then we'll gt over it and bring out those new fuel sources. We already have that stuff made out of beans, whole name I can not currently remember. But it's not widespread enough. It will be, eventually, once there's money to be made. So, in effect, capitalism will help[i] the environmental issue!

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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:19 am

Oh, and if we make it to Venus, I think we'll be able to deal with the heat and pressure by that time. And we'll all be dead by old age by then. By about 100 years or so.

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Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:44 am

Of course capitalism has an environmental effect, its bound to. Capitalist production treats the Earth as if it were merely a vast collection of commodities and will only modify its methods to reduce environmental impact in if it begins to limit production.
Quote :

Capitalist production, by collecting the population in great centres, and causing an ever-increasing preponderance of town population, on the one hand concentrates the historical motive power of society; on the other hand, it disturbs the circulation of matter between man and the soil, i.e., prevents the return to the soil of its elements consumed by man in the form of food and clothing; it therefore violates the conditions necessary to the lasting fertility of the soil.... all progress in capitalistic agriculture is a progress in the art, not only of robbing the labourer, but of robbing the soil; all progress in increasing the fertility of the soil for a given time, is a progress towards ruining the lasting source of that fertility... Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original resource sources of all wealth- the soil and the labourer.

Capitalism is not merely a philosophy, it, like socialism is a mode of production and the environmental crisis and capitalism are the same thing. Socialist production retains sustainability because products are not commodified because it acknowledges the Earth is not a collection of commodities but rather a life sustaining organ with a metabolic relationship that must be maintained. This means the preservation of nature as raw materials are treated as organs annexed to the human body upon use rather than commodities.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:41 pm

Ryom wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

this is why we need the moon,venus,mars and mercury all are rich in iron and other good and valuebel metals. gentelmen we'r hedin to space.
Lol good luck geting to Venus, on Venus there is clouds and rain of sulfuric acid, the atmospheric pressure is equivalent to 1 km under the under Earth's oceans surface, and its funny you say venus when we are talking about global warming becouse Venus has the strongest greenhouse effect in the solar system, creating surface temperatures of over 460 °C
I be no Idiot.
we have backteria that can live in theas conditions and btw live on slurfuric acid if we were to transport gzillions of them then maybe if we utterly swamp the planet with them then we can live on venus.

+if no backteri meets expectations we're devoloping a way to proggram DNA in order to simply build life from nothing(nearly)
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nillerz
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:56 pm

I hate to put this entire debate in such callous terms, but to express how little I care about the environment and how sick I am of hearing about it I will say this:

Fuck the environment.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:08 pm

nillerz wrote:
I hate to put this entire debate in such callous terms, but to express how little I care about the environment and how sick I am of hearing about it I will say this:

Fuck the environment.
fuck the planet and live while we can!!
if we fuck the enviorment then it will fuck with us.
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Black_Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:00 pm

nillerz wrote:
Fuck the environment.

Then you'll effectively fuck yourself, and your children, their children, and so on down the line til we're extinct.

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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:19 am

Really man, the environment and labor are the two sources of all wealth, and both are being destroyed by capitalism.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:58 am

mattabesta wrote:

I be no Idiot.
we have backteria that can live in theas conditions and btw live on slurfuric acid if we were to transport gzillions of them then maybe if we utterly swamp the planet with them then we can live on venus.

+if no backteri meets expectations we're devoloping a way to proggram DNA in order to simply build life from nothing(nearly)
if your crazy idea with the bacteria actualy works, then wouldnt that just leave us with a hot planet with loads of bacteria?

and nillerz, its people like you who are slowley killing the human race and almost any other kind of animal on this planet
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:01 am

mattabesta wrote:

we have backteria that can live in theas conditions and btw live on slurfuric acid if we were to transport gzillions of them then maybe if we utterly swamp the planet with them then we can live on venus.

+if no backteri meets expectations we're devoloping a way to proggram DNA in order to simply build life from nothing(nearly)

In theory yes but it would take thousands of years and humans would stll not be able to live on Venus.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:04 am

Ryom wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

I be no Idiot.
we have backteria that can live in theas conditions and btw live on slurfuric acid if we were to transport gzillions of them then maybe if we utterly swamp the planet with them then we can live on venus.

+if no backteri meets expectations we're devoloping a way to proggram DNA in order to simply build life from nothing(nearly)
if your crazy idea with the bacteria actualy works, then wouldnt that just leave us with a hot planet with loads of bacteria?

and nillerz, its people like you who are slowley killing the human race and almost any other kind of animal on this planet

The main atmospheric gases on Venus are carbon dioxide and nitrogen, which make up 96.5% and 3.5% of all molecules. Other chemical compounds are present only in trace amounts.[1]-wiki

if you can get backteria there and start making O2 then the atmosephere will get hinner over time and maybe given, a lot of time, even millions of years you will get the 78/21 level we have.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:05 am

You can't teraform Venus.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:05 am

oligarch wrote:
You can't teraform Venus.

yes I can.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:15 am

No, its too hot.
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:17 am

oligarch wrote:
No, its too hot.

I putty backtery who make it cooler, dum,dum, now you give me gum,gum.
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Tyrong Kojy
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PostSubject: Re: Sustainable Development   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:20 am

You're right. You can't, right now. But at the time we finally make it there, say, in 100-1000 years, maybe we'll have the technology then. For the record, we can't terraform right now, either. Mars? We'll live in domes. That ain't terraforming.

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"Jenaveve took everything from me.
My friends,
My family,
Everything!
Her ambitions to dominate the universe are terrifying,
Evil beyond imagining.
I,
Tyrong Kojy,
The one whose power even the creator fears,
Will stop her.
Even if I have to destroy the universe to do it!"
Tyrong Kojy/Jenaveve by Nicholas Rivest
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