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 what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:26 am

i am explinating what is materialisms is okay. now what im not doing is what im in the next sentence going to be saying. telling what normal materialism is. the truth is that of what i will be conveying in words to you will be breefly summarised in the senctencse following the one that this one is,. marxist materialism. now i have completed the retarded part aka introduction aka preface aka prologue aka wottever you like to for it be to be called you know? okay. end.

Part 1: Materialism Explained

Materialism in the Marxist sense means that the consciousness of men is determined by the material conditions. It is the materialist part of Marxism that makes it scientific.

Marx admired socialists before him such as Owen and Fourier but he believed they were utopian. The reason was that they believed they could just convince people to like socialism and then they would change their society to a socialist one.

Unfortunately for them, their efforts did not succeed. Marx knew that the consciousness of the people did not change because the material conditions did not change.

Marxism is socialism combined with materialism. Marx showed how the material conditions changed over time, and why this would lead to the end of capitalism and the start of socialism.

Part 2: Leninism Exposed

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin added to Marx's scientific theories, creating an ideology that is commonly known as "Leninism."

One of the new ideas Lenin had was the concept of the vanguard party, the leader of the working class.

So why do Leninists support the vanguard party? Is it because they like authority? Probably, although they might not admit it.

Is the reason that they feel a vanguard party is necessary? If so, they are contradicting Marx's theory that the material conditions would inevitably lead to the end of the working class.

Do the Leninists think that they can bring about socialism faster with a vanguard party? If so, they are once again contradicting Marxist materialism.

I challenge any Leninist to prove that Leninism is not in the slightest bit idealist.

teh endzs
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:36 am

Watermelon wrote:


Materialism in the Marxist sense means that the consciousness of men is determined by the material conditions. It is the materialist part of Marxism that makes it scientific.

No, it isn't. Historical(Marxist) materialism states the social existence from which social consciousness arises is determined by the technology through which man deals with nature(the mode and process of production).



Quote :

Marxism is socialism combined with materialism. Marx showed how the material conditions changed over time, and why this would lead to the end of capitalism and the start of socialism.

Marxism is a teaching of the philosophy of history, political economy, and proletariat socialism.






Quote :
Is the reason that they feel a vanguard party is necessary? If so, they are contradicting Marx's theory that the material conditions would inevitably lead to the end of the working class.

What?


Quote :

I challenge any Leninist to prove that Leninism is not in the slightest bit idealist.

Leninists are atheists. There.
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:45 am

i said slightest bit genius. you didnt even address my other claims that it is idealisms.
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:58 am

Quote :
I challenge any Leninist to prove that Leninism is not in the slightest bit idealist.


Quote :
Leninists are atheists. There.

No you didn't and yes I did.
Start using proper grammar.
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:03 am

idealism doesnt only mean belief in god
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:33 am

Not necessarily but Leninists do not hold the belief that existence is a result of consciousness.
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:29 pm

why do leninists try to spread propaganda to make peolpe believe in communism when they will anyway because of the material conditions
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:28 am

Quote :
Marx admired socialists before him such as Owen and Fourier but he believed they were utopian. The reason was that they believed they could just convince people to like socialism and then they would change their society to a socialist one.

Unfortunately for them, their efforts did not succeed. Marx knew that the consciousness of the people did not change because the material conditions did not change.

Quote :
why do leninists try to spread propaganda to make peolpe believe in communism when they will anyway because of the material conditions
someone is losing ground.
to blatantly say that material conditions dictates all social conciousness is assinine. for most the truth is there(how badly they are being screwed by a system that threw them over board) one just has to work to find it. which is never easy, but often the case. that being said dont you believe revolution must spark in the smaller, 3rd world portions of the world, for civil war to ignite in the modern empires of todays 1st world?
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:51 am

Quote :
to blatantly say that material conditions dictates all social conciousness is assinine

1. asinine*
2. that is the basis of marxism. call it asinine if you like but then dont pretend to be marxist.
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:24 am

i didn't say that it didnt play a major role in it, but you can't just ignore the other major things that play a large role in the shaping of the proletariat.
didn't you support leninism anyway?
Quote :

Marx admired socialists before him such as Owen and Fourier but he believed they were utopian. The reason was that they believed they could just convince people to like socialism and then they would change their society to a socialist one.
seems like good information, i dont want to sound like an essay fascist, but would you care to cite?
thank you
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:57 pm

Quote :
The Socialist and Communist systems, properly so called, those of Saint-Simon, Fourier, Owen, and others, spring into existence in the early undeveloped period, described above, of the struggle between proletariat and bourgeoisie (see Section 1. Bourgeois and Proletarians).

The founders of these systems see, indeed, the class antagonisms, as well as the action of the decomposing elements in the prevailing form of society. But the proletariat, as yet in its infancy, offers to them the spectacle of a class without any historical initiative or any independent political movement.

Since the development of class antagonism keeps even pace with the development of industry, the economic situation, as they find it, does not as yet offer to them the material conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat. They therefore search after a new social science, after new social laws, that are to create these conditions.

Historical action is to yield to their personal inventive action; historically created conditions of emancipation to fantastic ones; and the gradual, spontaneous class organisation of the proletariat to an organisation of society especially contrived by these inventors. Future history resolves itself, in their eyes, into the propaganda and the practical carrying out of their social plans.

In the formation of their plans, they are conscious of caring chiefly for the interests of the working class, as being the most suffering class. Only from the point of view of being the most suffering class does the proletariat exist for them.

The undeveloped state of the class struggle, as well as their own surroundings, causes Socialists of this kind to consider themselves far superior to all class antagonisms. They want to improve the condition of every member of society, even that of the most favoured. Hence, they habitually appeal to society at large, without the distinction of class; nay, by preference, to the ruling class. For how can people, when once they understand their system, fail to see in it the best possible plan of the best possible state of society?

Hence, they reject all political, and especially all revolutionary action; they wish to attain their ends by peaceful means, necessarily doomed to failure, and by the force of example, to pave the way for the new social Gospel.

Such fantastic pictures of future society, painted at a time when the proletariat is still in a very undeveloped state and has but a fantastic conception of its own position, correspond with the first instinctive yearnings of that class for a general reconstruction of society.

COmmunist Manifesto read the whole thing



I was a leninist for like 1 week

NO! only material conditions determine consciousness. WHat other major things? god? god is fake boy!
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:29 pm

i rewrote the communist manifesto.
i am saying that i took material conditions influencing social consciousness with a grain of salt because the proletariat of the 19th century is different then that of the 21st.
not too different, but enough for the difference to be evident.
i know god is dead, your talking to a nihilist watermelon.
i am sorry that your views on the vanguard party are so negative.
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:46 am

dude...

this is so annoying
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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:31 pm

dude....

quit spamming

youre ruining a perfectly wonderful thread

plus i got someone i think beatnikzach to admit lenin revised marxism and i got alek to admit that anarchism is not morally better than nazism.
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:56 pm

Watermelon wrote:
dude....

quit spamming

youre ruining a perfectly wonderful thread

plus i got someone i think beatnikzach to admit lenin revised marxism and i got alek to admit that anarchism is not morally better than nazism.
and they are both experts on those fields to make assumptions like that right?

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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:43 pm

o i forgot you are the expert of marxism. my baedd
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:50 pm

Watermelon wrote:
o i forgot you are the expert of marxism. my baedd
No im not and i havnt claimed that either. I am not the one who tried to revise Marx and thought you logic was surpior

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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:52 pm

look that was one time but i only believed that for like 3 days. plus lenin revised marxism and no one is calling him idiot are they. no your just rasest against me because im 14
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:53 pm

how the fuck did he revise marxism
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:56 pm

hes trying to makesocialism before the material conditions are ripe exapmle socviat unieon
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:03 pm

so OBVIOUSLY you have no knowledge of the USSR's degeneration.

that is the argument of the petty bourgeois social democrats.

That had absolutely nothing to do with it and i'd like you to walk me out how that supposedly happened since you know so much about the Soviet Union
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:04 pm

weylly well well

1. there was no crisis which led to a revolution

end
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:06 pm

what the fuck are you talking about?

People were starving
they were being forced to fight an imperialist war
they had a fucking Tsar running the country
the land lords ran the country

...


you're __ ______
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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:08 pm

dude your insane. a few people were had bad conditions, so what? its always like tha.t

it has to be lyke seriously bad for a revolution to occur.

lyke everyone is poor which makes the workers gain class consciouesness by themslevs to have a reveluction

obaeously that didnt happpended so i advise you to quit being an aescehole
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:12 pm

LOL

alright now you are totally denying the hundreds of thousands of people being sent to their death

the worker's protests that were violently repressed

Bloody sunday

good job replacing history with reactionary bullshit. Just like the Stalin school of Falsification lol

i swear the reason i drift away from this place is because of the stuff you spout on this site
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PostSubject: Re: what materialisms is and why it does not includes leninisms   Today at 6:51 am

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