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 inevitability of communism

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:49 am

does anyone dispute the inevitability of communism? If so, say why and ill tell you why you are wrong. if you dont know why i say its inevitable, ask and ill tell you.
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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:02 pm

Er...the working conditions of the prolatriat? Is that enough? :3c

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:03 pm

sort of. there already bad but thats not enough. marx proves why it will get woerse
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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:07 pm

Watermelon wrote:
there already bad but thats not enough. marx proves why it will get woerse

There's still unregulated child labor in the US. Especially in the West coasts of California and stuff.

I believe the conditions will get WORSE when the US runs out of cheap labor in China and India, inevitability being forced to use own civilian workforce as "cheap labor" (like in the 1800s) or invade other countries again.

...gods, that was a lame answer. >.<

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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:46 pm

by then capital will have accumulated so much that they can afferd to pay workers alot.

the real reason is the overinvestment in constant capital, which creates no new value, thereby incraseing the organic composition of capital, thereby lowering the rate of profit.

the orgnanic composition of capital is c/v

the rate of profit is s/(c+v) or (s/v)/(c/v +1)

when this lowers the rate of exploitation must increase, thereby decreasing the social position of the proletariat in relation to the bourgeoisie. this tentds to create revolution.
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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:51 pm

that probly doesnt make sense to you. sorry. i was in a rush. il try to explain it better later.

edit: okay il start with the labor theroy of value.

The first principle of it is that all value is created by labour. Like all things are made by people working.

sometimes machines make things, but it was pepole working who made the machines so it is really the labor that created the value of what the machine made.

do you get it so far?

il explain if you dont and continue if you do.

il take that as yes you understand. the next part is kind of difecult to grasp though.

this time ill talk about how prices are determined.

okay, first there is supply and demand. basecly it says that when there is more demand the prices will rise and when there is more supply the prices will lower.

this happens because when a lot of people want something they compete amog themselves to try to get that thing.

example: there are 13 nintendo wiis and 20 people want a nintendo wii. since so many people want one, the buyers have to compete amongst each other and each offer higher prices. this will make the other buyers less likely to want it since it costs more. the seller will sell it to whoever pays the most.

however, if there are 20 wiis and only 13 buyers, then the seller will put the price lower so people who didnt originally want it will buy it.

now what happens when the price of something is high? then a lot of people want to sell that thing because they can make a profit off of it.

so alot of capitalists will start selling that thing. however, when this happens. there is a large supply of tat thing, which means the price will go down again.

this means people will stop selling it, which means low supply, which means prices go up again, and it just goes in a cycle.

the prices go up and down, up and down, but they tend to "gravitate" towards a certain price.

eventually when the same amount of sellers sell it, the price will stay more or less the same.

this will happen for all commodities (a commodity is something that you sell).

got it so far? good.
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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:24 pm

okay now ill discuss something else and come back to the prices later. now ill talk about value and surplus value.

the way that the seller makes money is by selling the commodity for more than it costs to make it. this is the profit.

example: it costs 20$ to make a wii and you sell a wii for 100$. you make an 80$ profit.

the 20$ you pay is what you pay the workers (il get into machines later)

this means that the worker produces 80$ in value but only receives 20$ in payment for it. so the worker is only getting paid for part of the work.

the work that he is not paid for is called surplus labor.

the money that he is not paid that instead goes to the capitalist is the surplus value. the surplus value is the same as the profit.

got that? good.

okay next thing.

how much of something is produced is originally determined by the cost to produce it. if it costs alot, there will be less production of it. if there is less cost, there is more productions of it.

the cost determines the supply, and also the price. the price is always higher than the cost of production, other wise there would be no profit from producing it. the cost of production also determines the demand, since it determines price.

if price is greater, there is less demand, and vice versa

so we know that the fundamental determiner of price is cost of production.

got it? good. now onto machines.

the capitalists really do not pay for machines. they pay workers to make the machines so they get the machines for free.

sometimes one capitalist makes machines and sells it to other capialist, so they really do pay for it. but the truth is one capitalist gains money one loses so there is a total of no gain or loss for the capitlist class

we'ere examining the class as a whole here not specific capialists.

so capitalists dont pay for machines. and the cost of production determines price. this means machines dont determine price since the cappies dont pay for them.

this means price is determined only by how much they pay the workers, which is determined by the amount of labor.

therefore labor time determines price.

got it? good.
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Watermelon
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:55 pm

okay so now you know that machines create no value. however, because of competition between capitalists, they invest in more machines, because that lets them produce more for less money which means they can sell it for less and thus make a larger profit.

this profit is only temporary as all capitalists will invest also.

so capitalists invest more and more in machinery which creates no value.

this means the rate of profit falls.

this means the capitslists will pay the workers less to make up for it.

this means the workers will not like it.

REVELUCTION COMRADES!
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:04 am

i know the inevitability of communism, it becomes a one-person leadership that exploits its people much more than capitalism ever did, destroying the rights of citizens and by controlling them by means of secret police.
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Riddler
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:33 pm

Communism can come only with someone's action. Using the otherwise logic, it should've come shortly after 1917. So if no one decides to lead the revolution - nothing will ever happen. With the american brainwashing program, the proletariat will NEVER rise by itself.

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Tyrlop
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:49 pm

Riddler wrote:
Communism can come only with someone's action. Using the otherwise logic, it should've come shortly after 1917. So if no one decides to lead the revolution - nothing will ever happen. With the american brainwashing program, the proletariat will NEVER rise by itself.
yes we need a strong leader!! some one who can lead us! 1 people, 1 nation and 1 leader lol 1, ur right but its dynamite, dangerous stuff it must be someone we trust
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:50 pm

Riddler wrote:
With the american brainwashing program, the proletariat will NEVER rise by itself.

Although you are a Stalinist Riddler, I have to whole heartedly agree. It's extremely tough being the only communist in my school. Most of my friends still believe in the whole "black and white" bullshit America has sucessfully pulled off.

I try explaining to them that communism is NOT a one-leader BS thing. It is, as Marx stated, a WORKERS state. As in normal people's taking overorz! If they can actually get that simple fact thru their brainwashed thick skulls, then I would accept them more.

It's heug disappointment that America teaches their future children to be closed-minded brainwashed facists. T_T

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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:54 pm

calinis wrote:
i know the inevitability of communism, it becomes a one-person leadership that exploits its people much more than capitalism ever did, destroying the rights of citizens and by controlling them by means of secret police.

You do realize you justs stated the Fascist idea of ruling?

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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:21 am

I didn't mean a dictator, even though I'm stalinist. I've meant SOMEBODY who can lead revolution. Without this SOMEBODY, communism won't happen.

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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:27 am

ha ha people who think stalin as idol are idiots who should die, just like all the millions of people he killed for no legit reason.

did you know he killed a little girl after having his picture taken with her, because she might hold something against him

he didnt really care about anyone, he just wanted to be absolute dictator.

would you support it if some idiot took power, in communist state, and forced you to do things you wouldn't want and have the secret police arrest you for no reason?
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:32 am

calinis wrote:
ha ha people who think stalin as idol are idiots who should die, just like all the millions of people he killed for no legit reason.
What millions? Read the thread: http://worldrepublic.forumotion.com/monument-to-heroes-f14/deportation-of-stalin-into-gulag-t110.htm Zealot explained very well the myth of the "evil dictator who killed millions of people" Stalin.

calinis wrote:
did you know he killed a little girl after having his picture taken with her, because she might hold something against him
WTF? Where did you take that dumb fairy tale from?

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calinis
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:39 am

actually he ordered all the people be killed, he destroyed opposition and eliminated all the bolsheviks, it is true. why can you look up to tyrannical leader? lol, you clearly are an idiot. if you think highly of dictators controlling your every move, why aren't you in n. korea?
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:42 am

calinis wrote:
actually he ordered all the people be killed, he destroyed opposition and eliminated all the bolsheviks, it is true. why can you look up to tyrannical leader? lol, you clearly are an idiot. if you think highly of dictators controlling your every move, why aren't you in n. korea?
He didn't. Most of his crimes were a false american or trotskyist propoganda. He had to rule with an iron fist to rebuild his country from two wars, and evidently to defeat nazis(it was a dictator Stalin, not democratic Churchill or Roosewelt who defeated Hitler).

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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:46 am

actually he was the one who gave NKVD orders, he said people had to send certain amount of people to the gulags, there were arrest quotas, and it seemed ideal to increase slave labourfor economic gain. people were arrested for simply not having a picture of stalin in their room.
and wth are you talking about? it was not just the soviet union that cause the allies to win the war, it was a joint effort.
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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:48 am

I personally don't consider Stalinism as a Communist doctrine - Brutal, intolerant, moral-less - no better than Capitalism.

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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:49 am

calinis wrote:
actually he was the one who gave NKVD orders,
Well, some say he did't control the NKVD that time. And after 1935 only the NKVD officers were shot or sent in the Gulag. Probably for killing innocent people.

calinis wrote:

and wth are you talking about? it was not just the soviet union that cause the allies to win the war, it was a joint effort.
It was mostly the USSR who took all the damage from the Nazis. And it were soviets who took Berlin in the end of the war.

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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:50 am

Cyprian Uljanow wrote:
I personally don't consider Stalinism as a Communist doctrine - Brutal, intolerant, moral-less - no better than Capitalism.
Not right at all. I'm a Stalinist and I support the democratic ideas, such as the freedom of speech, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: inevitability of communism   Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:03 am

If Stalin was in favored of free speech why did he oppress it? <_> Oxymoron?

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