World Republic
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
World Republic

Uniting All People!
 
HomeHome  SearchSearch  Latest imagesLatest images  RegisterRegister  Log in  

 

 Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)

Go down 
+15
Liche
Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
Cyprian Uljanow
RedNation
themacintrasher
Jinnyjinster
ivan55599
Voice of Reason
Diogritor
Kenzu
mattabesta
comiescums
Zealot_Kommunizma
Judge Dredd
Patetine
19 posters
Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
AuthorMessage
Patetine
Pioneer
Patetine


Posts : 27
Join date : 2008-01-04
Age : 32
Location : Finland

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2008 8:37 pm

of course it worked!
Back to top Go down
Judge Dredd
Young Pioneer



Posts : 14
Join date : 2008-01-13
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 8:39 am

Patetine wrote:
of course it worked!

Really? Where is it now? Who won the Cold War? Makes me want to ask rhetorical questions.
Back to top Go down
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 8:44 am

Judge Dredd wrote:
Patetine wrote:
of course it worked!

Really? Where is it now? Who won the Cold War? Makes me want to ask rhetorical questions.

Saying USSR worked or not would depend on which the objective was. It both worked and didn't work. It worked to show how Socialist tending State Capitalisms don't work or are very hardly workable. It also showed how great centralization of power can make of illiterate underindustrialized nations superpowers in matter of a couple of decades. And it left Russia a legacy of high technology, powerful industry, great education, social security, great infrastructure, military and political power and saved Russia from a possible conquest.

It didn't last for long, but history is not yet over either...
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
Judge Dredd
Young Pioneer



Posts : 14
Join date : 2008-01-13
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 8:47 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Judge Dredd wrote:
Patetine wrote:
of course it worked!

Really? Where is it now? Who won the Cold War? Makes me want to ask rhetorical questions.

Saying USSR worked or not would depend on which the objective was. It both worked and didn't work. It worked to show how Socialist tending State Capitalisms don't work or are very hardly workable. It also showed how great centralization of power can make of illiterate underindustrialized nations superpowers in matter of a couple of decades. And it left Russia a legacy of high technology, powerful industry, great education, social security, great infrastructure, military and political power and saved Russia from a possible conquest.

It didn't last for long, but history is not yet over either...

But it also stole secrets when it couldn't make technology. American traitors handed over Atomic secrets that could have helped us smash the USSR sooner. Would have been nice, but I'll settle for the long drawn-out effect of crippling Russia. It's satisfying after seeing what the Reds did to family members of mine during Korea and Vietnam.

I suppose that is the past but Capitalism stands strong over Communism/Socialism no matter what.
Back to top Go down
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 9:04 am

Judge Dredd wrote:


But it also stole secrets when it couldn't make technology. American traitors handed over Atomic secrets that could have helped us smash the USSR sooner.

USSR had been working on nuclear technology since long before stealing those secrets. Stealing them was merely to catalyse the development of nuclear weaponry so that USSR could deffend from US threat.

You didn't smash USSR by the way, it smashed itself, otherwise you couldn't have done anything against it except a mutual destructive nuclear war. You should be pretty thankful to all those that mismanaged USSR.

Judge Dredd wrote:

Would have been nice, but I'll settle for the long drawn-out effect of crippling Russia. It's satisfying after seeing what the Reds did to family members of mine during Korea and Vietnam.

Russia will sooner or later stand up again. I wonder something... did your family members resist or oppose going to Korea and Viet Nam?


Judge Dredd wrote:

I suppose that is the past but Capitalism stands strong over Communism/Socialism no matter what.

Since there has never been communism or socialism it's impossible to make that affirmation..
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
Judge Dredd
Young Pioneer



Posts : 14
Join date : 2008-01-13
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 9:09 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Judge Dredd wrote:


But it also stole secrets when it couldn't make technology. American traitors handed over Atomic secrets that could have helped us smash the USSR sooner.

USSR had been working on nuclear technology since long before stealing those secrets. Stealing them was merely to catalyse the development of nuclear weaponry so that USSR could deffend from US threat.

Still stole it. I thought stealing was against the Socialist way.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

You didn't smash USSR by the way, it smashed itself, otherwise you couldn't have done anything against it except a mutual destructive nuclear war. You should be pretty thankful to all those that mismanaged USSR.

Even managed properly it would have failed. It gave little freedom to people. My country is far from perfect but we can change. Communism does not do so. It stagnates because it allows the greediest to walk with impunity.

I am glad that the Soviet Union collapsed so harshly. It's good to see them get their just desserts for causing so many problems for the world.

And we did do something to smash the USSR, we got stronger economically while the USSr weakened from its corrupt totalitarian rule.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Judge Dredd wrote:

Would have been nice, but I'll settle for the long drawn-out effect of crippling Russia. It's satisfying after seeing what the Reds did to family members of mine during Korea and Vietnam.

Russia will sooner or later stand up again. I wonder something... did your family members resist or oppose going to Korea and Viet Nam?

No, and they shouldn't have because it was their duties as soldiers. They didn't choose their fight, but they fought honorably and with high recognition.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Judge Dredd wrote:

I suppose that is the past but Capitalism stands strong over Communism/Socialism no matter what.

Since there has never been communism or socialism it's impossible to make that affirmation..

Yes, there has. USSR, PRC, North Korea, etc. are all Communist/Socialist states. I suppose more accurately would be Marxist but that's close enough. They are communists. Just because your side loses doesn't mean you can change them up to be something else.
Back to top Go down
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 9:28 am

[quote="Judge Dredd
Still stole it. I thought stealing was against the Socialist way.[/quote]
Neither was USSR socialist nor is stealing against socialist principles when it can strategically help you in the case of battle.

Judge Dredd wrote:

Even managed properly it would have failed. It gave little freedom to people. My country is far from perfect but we can change. Communism does not do so. It stagnates because it allows the greediest to walk with impunity.

Managed properly it would have really achieved socialism and then communism making its system unable to fail.. USSR was not communist, it was a Socialist-tending State Capitalism.

Judgde Dredd wrote:
I am glad that the Soviet Union collapsed so harshly. It's good to see them get their just desserts for causing so many problems for the world.
Yeah, getting rid of Nazi Germany and representing a counterbalance to US hegemony, pretty great problems to the world. It was USA, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and some states of Eastern Europe that were really causing troubles to USSR not otherwise.

Judge Dredd wrote:

And we did do something to smash the USSR, we got stronger economically while the USSr weakened from its corrupt totalitarian rule.
If USSR hadn't mismanaged itself by not adopting a capitalist system it wouldn't have entered the game of capitalist economy and wouldn't have collapsed.


Judge Dredd wrote:

No, and they shouldn't have because it was their duties as soldiers. They didn't choose their fight, but they fought honorably and with high recognition.

So they fought voluntarily and with plain consciousness of what they were fighting for, right? What did "reds" as you call them did to them?


Judge Dredd wrote:

Yes, there has. USSR, PRC, North Korea, etc. are all Communist/Socialist states. I suppose more accurately would be Marxist but that's close enough. They are communists. Just because your side loses doesn't mean you can change them up to be something else.

Time to be objective.
No, neither USSR, nor China, nor NK, nor Cuba etc. have had, had or have Communism or socialism. For a very simple fact: They all kept capitalism. They were and are State Capitalisms. Systems relying on money, relying on consumerism, on trade, on market. The difference is that these are not free markets but State Controlled markets, like the State was or is the big owner or the greatest shareholder of a massive enterprise. State built something and in order to get income back it had to sell it to people and so on and at the same time invest on free infrastructures and to invest on systems that would leave no income at all and that would expend money getting the conomy drained. Socialist Tending State Capitalisms were (are) depending on their degree of centralization and socialist tendance implosive contradictory economies that end up self-destructing while keeping people with a captitalist mentality.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
comiescums
Experienced Pioneer
comiescums


Posts : 62
Join date : 2008-01-12
Location : East Europe

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 5:21 pm

Quote :
Yeah, getting rid of Nazi Germany and representing a counterbalance to US hegemony, pretty great problems to the world. It was USA, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and some states of Eastern Europe that were really causing troubles to USSR not otherwise.
Yeah those countries must be properly honoured!

Quote :
Time to be objective.
No, neither USSR, nor China, nor NK, nor Cuba etc. have had, had or have Communism or socialism. For a very simple fact: They all kept capitalism.
In your socialism there are capital , so those countries are socialistic...
Back to top Go down
Judge Dredd
Young Pioneer



Posts : 14
Join date : 2008-01-13
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 6:28 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
Judge Dredd wrote:

Still stole it. I thought stealing was against the Socialist way.
Neither was USSR socialist nor is stealing against socialist principles when it can strategically help you in the case of battle.

So stealing is okay when you can justify it in your own head? Interesting.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Judge Dredd wrote:

Even managed properly it would have failed. It gave little freedom to people. My country is far from perfect but we can change. Communism does not do so. It stagnates because it allows the greediest to walk with impunity.

Managed properly it would have really achieved socialism and then communism making its system unable to fail.. USSR was not communist, it was a Socialist-tending State Capitalism.

Whatever, that's as close to socialism/communism as the world will get to. No one in their sane mind will willing give up a profit system in which their work produces something.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Judgde Dredd wrote:
I am glad that the Soviet Union collapsed so harshly. It's good to see them get their just desserts for causing so many problems for the world.
Yeah, getting rid of Nazi Germany and representing a counterbalance to US hegemony, pretty great problems to the world. It was USA, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and some states of Eastern Europe that were really causing troubles to USSR not otherwise.

Keep telling yourself that. Remember that Lenin, Stalin, and all others were brutal dictators who killed millions in gulags and starved many more by their ignorant thought. In a free market such problems work themselves out a lot better.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Judge Dredd wrote:

And we did do something to smash the USSR, we got stronger economically while the USSr weakened from its corrupt totalitarian rule.
If USSR hadn't mismanaged itself by not adopting a capitalist system it wouldn't have entered the game of capitalist economy and wouldn't have collapsed.

Probably would have made them prosper had they done that right. The problem with your philosophy is that you make it so black and white that there is no room for logic. Because someone has more money than others does not make them evil. It just means either they inherited the money or earned it through some sort of skill or innovative idea. That's why we won, because the USSR and others lose when they try to play with such idiotic ideas.

Notice China is doing quite well and they've adopted a *gasp* Capitalist-style system after years of crappy Commie/Socialism!

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Judge Dredd wrote:

No, and they shouldn't have because it was their duties as soldiers. They didn't choose their fight, but they fought honorably and with high recognition.

So they fought voluntarily and with plain consciousness of what they were fighting for, right? What did "reds" as you call them did to them?

They fought because they were soldiers and their country ordered them to fight. It's not like they were happy to go. But I'll tell you just what those filthy Reds did.

They captured my uncle and tortured him severely. Directly violating the Geneva Convention and going against the childish notion of a utopia. So I'm glad when my uncle and grandfather mention how they killed commies. Brings a smile to my face. I wish the Cold War hadn't ended. I would have loved to go to war with the USSR and spit on one of those Lenin statues as we beat the living crap out of them. But we had to settle for robbing you guys blind during the Afghan invasion. Those Mig's weren't cheap.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Judge Dredd wrote:

Yes, there has. USSR, PRC, North Korea, etc. are all Communist/Socialist states. I suppose more accurately would be Marxist but that's close enough. They are communists. Just because your side loses doesn't mean you can change them up to be something else.

Time to be objective.
No, neither USSR, nor China, nor NK, nor Cuba etc. have had, had or have Communism or socialism. For a very simple fact: They all kept capitalism. They were and are State Capitalisms. Systems relying on money, relying on consumerism, on trade, on market. The difference is that these are not free markets but State Controlled markets, like the State was or is the big owner or the greatest shareholder of a massive enterprise. State built something and in order to get income back it had to sell it to people and so on and at the same time invest on free infrastructures and to invest on systems that would leave no income at all and that would expend money getting the conomy drained. Socialist Tending State Capitalisms were (are) depending on their degree of centralization and socialist tendance implosive contradictory economies that end up self-destructing while keeping people with a captitalist mentality.

Keep telling yourself that. Every commie I meet tries to distance themselves from those states and with good cause. They were corrupt, evil, cruel, and violent. They attacked intellectuals and imprisoned people who spoke out. That, my friend, is your Communist ideals in action.
Back to top Go down
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 8:17 pm

comiescums wrote:

Yeah those countries must be properly honoured!
Specially Nazi Germany probably since no country in the world did more damage to the USSR than it.

Quote :
In your socialism there are capital , so those countries are socialistic...
"In your socialism there's capital" - capital is singular so you must say "there is".

No, in socialism there's no capital. In socialism the whole system starts creating the infrastructure, legistative mechanism and overall logistic mechanism to establish communism. It's just a transitory stage.

In those states there was no transition at all. It stagnated in mere state capitalism managed by state which at the same invested in non-lucrative enterprises.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
comiescums
Experienced Pioneer
comiescums


Posts : 62
Join date : 2008-01-12
Location : East Europe

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 8:36 pm

Quote :
"In your socialism there's capital" - capital is singular so you must say "there is".
Thanks, i keep that in mind.
Quote :
No, in socialism there's no capital. In socialism the whole system starts creating the infrastructure, legistative mechanism and overall logistic mechanism to establish communism. It's just a transitory stage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_economics
Back to top Go down
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 10:29 pm

Judge Dredd wrote:

So stealing is okay when you can justify it in your own head? Interesting.

As I said, in the mere case of battle, it's not at all wrong. You're fighting against an entity that searchs for your destruction so any measure taken by you that does not negatively affect 3rd parties is justifiable. Stealing is one of them.

Judgde Dredd wrote:

Whatever, that's as close to socialism/communism as the world will get to. No one in their sane mind will willing give up a profit system in which their work produces something.

That's yet to be seen.
Let's see. An egineer works to build a ship - his work produced something: a ship. An archietct workerd to build some building- his work did produce something: a building.
You perhaps meant a personal satisfactor or an income or material wealth perhaps?
In a communist framework:
Case 1: Engineer
Personal satisfactor: An engineer builds a workable bridge. What that engineer built is well done for it works. He should be satisfied for building something that works, for confirming that he's a valuable engineer. He's doing something productive for society.
Material satisfactor: By working properly, the engineer earns the rights to have his needs satisfied.
Case 2: Doctor
Personal satisfactor: A doctor saves someone's life by surgical intervention. He saved a life through his effort. He should be satisfied that he did something as great as saving someone's life. He's doling soething productive for society.
Material satisfactor: By working he earns the right to have his needs satisfied.
Case 3: Mason
Personal sastisfactor: He's providing the workforce needed to build something that will be productive for himself and the society: a building with a certain function. Besides this work as any other givs him the right to have his needs satisfied and his freedoms applied.
Material satisfactor: By working he earns the right to hve his needs satisfied.

From a communist point of view someone who doesn't like to work, who doesn't like the work he does and does it merely for obligation, someone who does a certain job just to accumulate material wealth is a non-valuable worker. That person is working for the wrong reasons, from a communist point of view.

If an engineer just works as an engineer because in some moment of his school days he realized he was good for maths and that engineers are paid a great load of money so he decided to be an engineer, and is an engineer for the promised 6,000 USD a month and doesn't really find any great satisfaction while performing his job, for the mere reason of performing it, then, from a communist point of view that person is merely a greedy individual with engineering skills.

The same for a doctor.

As for a mason, people are usually masons when they don't want to undergo the mental pressures of a job that demands more intellectual effort and prefer simple physical effort, for any given reason. Either way they have to work at something. Something they are able to perform. As long as they get their needs guaranteed through work , it should be enough.

Judgde Dredd wrote:


Keep telling yourself that. Remember that Lenin, Stalin, and all others were brutal dictators who killed millions in gulags and starved many more by their ignorant thought. In a free market such problems work themselves out a lot better.

It's pretty easy just to go out by the tangent and say "Keep telling that to yourself" or whatever of the sort and of course omit the historical situation of a given nation and the context.
First of all: You said that the USSR caused many problems to the world. If USSR had killed 10, 20 or whatever ammount of millions within its own territory, in which way is that a problem to the world? NOTICE: I'm not justifying any of the sort or accepting it happened, just simply saying this: In which way did USSR internal affairs specially regarding to the execution of individuals cause troubles for the world?

2. Many scholars attribute even the ridiculous ammount of 100 million deaths to Stalin, some others prefer 60, others 40 and others go to as low as 4 million. Claims such as 100 million executions and/or starvation victims are done without the slightest piece of convincing evidence. And not only that, it is ridiculous according to census. 1916 census estimates that there were 181million people within the boundaries of the Russian Empire. Speculating it could have been short by let's say 35 million. That Gives 216 million. In 1939 USSR had a population of 168 million. Stalin took power officially since 1927. USSR had passed through WWI and Civil War. For Stalin to have been able to kill as many as 100 million, and you cannot attribute to him the deaths caused directly or indirectly by war, USSR would have had to have at least 268 million people by 1927. 9 years after the last census. So in 9 years and adding 35 million to the original census, at least 52 million people should have been born inspite of WWI, Civil War and famines derivated from them, the oldest being 9 by 1927 and 21 by 1939 and not older than 35 by 1953 the year in which Stalin died. Omitting of course WWII in which 27 million Soviets died because of war which by 1945 should have left 141million people, Stalin should have killed people in two batches from 1927 to 1939 and from 1945 to 1953. 20 years to kill 100 million. 5 million each year, nearly the same rate as lost in WWII. Not only by census is ridiculous but simply the whole damned logistics to do that unnoticed and hidden, impossible, you're talking about 33 million families being affected practically the whole Soviet Union would have had some links to those 33 million eliminated families. There would be just too much evidence to hide it.

3. As for famines and deaths. USSR was established in 1922 after the Civil War which lasted 4 years. USSR inherited a post war situation in which lots of crops had been abandoned and their workers sent to battle in WWI, not only did the soldiers die, but the abandonment of crops did lead to famines. Just after that war srpouted a new war: 2 Russian Revolutions and the subsequent Civil War. In this civil war Russia split in 2 main factions: Reds and Whites with sprouts of anarchists and nationalists in some regions. Added to this the 6 most powerful nations of the globe sent their armies against the Red Army to support thhe whites. After 4 years of battle the Reds win and establish the USSR. Two wars one after another USSR having to fend off even foreign forces and foreign backed national forces in one of them. That of ourse causes economical problems. That mixed with the stupid desition of Stalin to follow Lysenko's theories on biology gave a complete blow to Soviet early agriculture. And 17 years later another war sprouted a war in which USSR lost 27 million people. In which For 3 years lots of fertile lands were occupied by the enemy and workforce was focused to sustain the battle.

In summary USSR is not a country that just could sit there without risk of being invaded like England or USA, USSR inherited a postwar situation at its mere birth, had to face immediately after a war another war in which foreign powers participated to strike it and less than two decades later in had to face a more brutal war in which the most powerful land army of the world sent most of its troops against her.

It's very easy just to attribute everything to governmental mismanagement and leave aside the fact that USSR had to stand the heaviest part of the two largest world conflicts and one internal in which foreign forces invaded in less than 25 years and of course to atribute all the casualties from those periods to the government. If you don't like that government blame it for everything bad that happens to its nation no matter how involved foreign entities are.


Judge Dredd wrote:

Probably would have made them prosper had they done that right. The problem with your philosophy is that you make it so black and white that there is no room for logic. Because someone has more money than others does not make them evil.

And who the hell is saying that everyone with a large ammount of money is evil? Actually "evil" is a relative term.
Communist philosophy, regarding to this topic is the next: anyone who works with the mere or main goal to accumulate or acquire wealth or with the objective to "demonstrate he's worth more than the others" and doesn't give prime priority to the satisfaction of working at something he likes to work and the profit it brings to himself and society is not valuable to communist society and thus can be subjectively tagged in a simplistic way as "evil".

On those grounds, you can have a large ammount of money but you may not care about that money and simply love to work at something and find satisfaction by the product of your labour, the fact that you do it well, tat it serves its purpose and brings benefits to society, and in a communist framework, that it gives yo the right to enjoy of your needs and rights.

I have said it before on this post. If you work just to be rich and prove others you're more than them, you are worth nothing to a communist society. The same if you're uneager to work if you're not to become rich or get a greater material income than others.

Judgde Dredd wrote:

It just means either they inherited the money or earned it through some sort of skill or innovative idea.

Actually is either by inheriting it and/or managing money well, investing it, or simply being able to succesfully sell something. Nothing special, and as I told you, from a communist point of view, the ammount of money you have doesn't make you as a person but your personal principles and objectives.
We all live in a capitalist framework right now and is understandable that within that capitalist framework you ammass a certain ammount of money: if you don't ammass some money, if you don't manage it effectively, if you waste or misue it, of course you'e putting both your freedom and integrity at the stakes, your risking yourself. In summary a capitalist framework money is a tool for freedom and security and is understandable that you may try to increase your security and freedom factors. That's how capitalism works.

If you like capitalism, and like to amass money and like a system reigned by these laws of exchange and demand, by market, by trade, by selling your labour and/or products of it, if you like to feel superior to others, etc. and you're not even eager to experience a system in which there's no money, no commerce, no trade but mere work, satisfaction through it and satisfaction of needs, then you're not valuable for a communist society and if you're skillful you are even a threat.

Judge Dredd wrote:

That's why we won, because the USSR and others lose when they try to play with such idiotic ideas.

No one won, USSR simply collapsed for implementing a socialist tending system with capitalism. Aspiring for something as high as socialism or communism, to something as socially advanced with a capitalist modus operandi and modus vivendi, is indeed contradictory and has been proved not to be effective. That's to play capitalism trying not to play it!

Judge Dredd wrote:

Notice China is doing quite well and they've adopted a *gasp* Capitalist-style system after years of crappy Commie/Socialism!

And once again you call that communism... No sir, it was not communism. It was State Capitalism. As long as you have money and you base all yor production and labourforce in commerce, trade, market and capital, you employ capitalism. What China did, to have a more succesful capitalism, was to liberalize its capitalism and sell something that is leaving geat ammounts of money: cheap workforce.



Judge Dredd wrote:

They fought because they were soldiers and their country ordered them to fight. It's not like they were happy to go.

So basically they were following orders, just accomplishing their job, right?


Judge Dredd wrote:
But I'll tell you just what those filthy Reds did.

They captured my uncle and tortured him severely.
I as a communist oppose completely to torture and/or execution unless the object of that torture/execution is completely an irreconciliable enemy of socialism.
In this case the proper communist thing to do would have been to capture him, seclude him and treat him just as a secluded guest, give him normal ammounts of food, provision of medical treatment, etc. If he did kill someone probably that would deserve some punishment.
Anyway you have to understand something: USA had nothing to do in Korea nor Viet Nam.

Judge Dredd wrote:

Directly violating the Geneva Convention and going against the childish notion of a utopia.
War is not a game with rules. And even for the sake of those Geneva Conventions: you have widely used cluster bombs which are forbbiden by these Geneva conventions, you have incinerated whole villages with napalm and you have committed several attrocities against populations. Being an invading force that besides didn't respect the invaded population, how would you expect some respect from that population?

Judge Dredd wrote:

So I'm glad when my uncle and grandfather mention how they killed commies. Brings a smile to my face.

Sadist huh?
By the way, I higly doubt he knew when he killed a communist or not since probably there were not many around.

Judge Dredd wrote:
I wish the Cold War hadn't ended. I would have loved to go to war with the USSR and spit on one of those Lenin statues as we beat the living crap out of them.
1. A war between USA and USSR would have meant mutual nuclear destruction.
2. You wouldn't have stood a war attacking the USSR.
First of all, it would have been an unjustified invation (well... since when have you cared about it anyways?).
Second, if you're having a hard time fighting Iraqis and Afghans you wouldn't have lasted invading USSR.

Judge Dredd wrote:

But we had to settle for robbing you guys blind during the Afghan invasion. Those Mig's weren't cheap.
Hmm... I guess the Supreme Soviet forgto to order removing the price tags of the MiGs after they were out of the factory...




Judge Dredd wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. Every commie I meet tries to distance themselves from those states and with good cause. They were corrupt, evil, cruel, and violent. They attacked intellectuals and imprisoned people who spoke out. That, my friend, is your Communist ideals in action.

You see? It's very easy just to omit facts and say "Just Keep telling yourself that" (I think the correct way is "Keep telling that to yourself" anyway).
I told you the reason why USSR was a state capitalism: Instead of relying on production management and distribution, it relied on capital management and investment. It employed money, market, sales, demand, wages. It was completely capitalist, just State controlled and with tendencies to socialism.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2008 10:39 pm

comiescums wrote:
Thanks, i keep that in mind.

You should say "Thanks, I'll keep it in mind" since it's something you'll do since now on.

comiescums wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_economics

That's the problem with the misudnerstanding of socialism and communism and of attaching so much to dogmas. Marx said very clearly that his doctrines should be revised.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
mattabesta
Chairman of the Supreme Council
mattabesta


Posts : 3936
Join date : 2007-12-23
Age : 29
Location : Iceland

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: LOOOOOOOOOOOOng reply   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeMon Jan 14, 2008 7:49 pm

an engeneer how builds a crappy bridge will have the sam standards of life as a engner how bulds a grate one dose that seem fair to you?
Back to top Go down
http://Pichunter.com
mattabesta
Chairman of the Supreme Council
mattabesta


Posts : 3936
Join date : 2007-12-23
Age : 29
Location : Iceland

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: stalin killed millons   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeMon Jan 14, 2008 8:00 pm

stalin killd 90% of all army officals ranked sargant and above plus hundreds of thusands of political enymies and other pepole how might threten him were starved to death.

and your saying that in the 9 years beetwen 1939 and 1948 the population grew by 35 millon?.
35 million is 17.5% of 200 million that means a 1,9% pY not too much compeared to european nations it wauld be classafide as a low population growth pprobably due to 24 million pepole killed by stalin as he was the one how caused the german invasion to be succses by killing hundreds of talanted war vetrans from W1
Back to top Go down
http://Pichunter.com
Kenzu
Chairman of the WR Committee
Kenzu


Posts : 1842
Join date : 2007-08-17
Age : 36
Location : Austria - Vienna

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeTue Jan 15, 2008 1:02 am

It WORKED!

Because of the USSR there were no homeless people and no one was unemployed. My grandparents and parents studied at their universities for free and were given good jobs!

They traveled a lot and visited many different countries.

When I was small I traveled to USSR each year with my parents. I dont remember much, but I remember a beautiful kindergarden, eating a birthday cake each week I was there, a lot of ice cream, tasty food, all people friendly and neverending happiness.

USSR rocks! But Gorbachev and Yeltsin destroyed it! May they burn in hell forever!
Back to top Go down
https://www.patreon.com/SocialistWorldRepublic
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeTue Jan 15, 2008 4:35 am

mattabesta wrote:
stalin killd 90% of all army officals ranked sargant and above plus hundreds of thusands of political enymies and other pepole how might threten him were starved to death.

Stalin did kill a lot of people, indeed, practically the whole opposition. He did deport many political enemies and sent many more to gulags. I didn't deny that, did I?

mattabesta wrote:

and your saying that in the 9 years beetwen 1939 and 1948 the population grew by 35 millon?. 35 million is 17.5% of 200 million that means a 1,9% pY not too much compeared to european nations it wauld be classafide as a low population growth pprobably due to 24 million pepole killed by stalin as he was the one how caused the german invasion to be succses by killing hundreds of talanted war vetrans from W1



1.WWI was pretty different to WWII.
2. You can't blame the outcome of a battle or a stage of a battle or war just on a single leader, and less on the execution of other leaders.
3. You definitely can't blame all the deaths from a certain war to a single man.
4. The german invasion did not succeed since it did not conquer or defeat USSR.
5. Germany sent most of its land forces against USSR. Nazi forces had the premise to treat slavians and specially Russians as inferior and to destroy Russia while enslaving it. Since the German land army was the most powerful land army in the early war and most of it was launched against the USSR a lot of deaths caused by such invation could be expected.
6. It's a falacy to state that "Stalin Killed 24 million people" by executing many officials from WWI.

I'm not defending Stalin, but you got to be objective. USSR dealt with the most powerful land army of the world of that time which was sent to systematically destroy USSR. USSR had inherited a postwar situtuation just to face another war and 17 years later yet another war. That damaged economy, infrastructure, demographics. To blame all problems USSR faced in the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's and 1950's on USSR's system is plain ridiculous.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
Diogritor
Experienced Party Member
Diogritor


Posts : 869
Join date : 2008-01-13
Age : 32
Location : USA USA USA

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeTue Jan 15, 2008 4:52 am

doing studies about WW2 now and there is no way that Stalin killed as many as people say he did. why has already been said. The USSR didnt have that many people in it at the time.
Back to top Go down
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeTue Jan 15, 2008 4:57 am

Diogritor wrote:
doing studies about WW2 now and there is no way that Stalin killed as many as people say he did. why has already been said. The USSR didnt have that many people in it at the time.

That's called to be objective.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
mattabesta
Chairman of the Supreme Council
mattabesta


Posts : 3936
Join date : 2007-12-23
Age : 29
Location : Iceland

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: russa way bigger   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeTue Jan 15, 2008 1:36 pm

germany's land army in 1941 were 3.5 million while russia had over 10
stalin orderd infantry divisions armed with WWI riffels to attack tank divisions he never ordered retreats thus cousing many of the soviet deaths in WWII.

Soviet union had a population of 175 millon while germany had 67
Back to top Go down
http://Pichunter.com
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeWed Jan 16, 2008 3:53 am

mattabesta wrote:
germany's land army in 1941 were 3.5 million while russia had over 10
German tactics were superior to Soviet tactics in the early war and USSR did not have enough tanks of as good as or better quality than German tanks in early war to fend off the invation effectively on that stage.

mattabesta wrote:

stalin orderd infantry divisions armed with WWI riffels to attack tank divisions he never ordered retreats thus cousing many of the soviet deaths in WWII.
Retreating would have let German troops advance further into Soviet territory at a faster rate.

mattabesta wrote:

Soviet union had a population of 175 millon while germany had 67
According to official data, USSR had a population of 168 million by 1939.
And even so, what does this imply? That USSR had more manpower? If that's what you meant, yes and I don't what does that debate.

If you imply that manpower superiority of USSR made it a stronger country than Germany, yes, it's partially true being one of the factors of why USSR fended Germany off.

If you imply that this should have meant that USSR had less losses, then, you're wrong. As I said, in the early war German tactics were better and USSR did not have enough tanks of comparable or better quality than Germans nor enough good enough anti-tank weapons to effectively stop them.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
Diogritor
Experienced Party Member
Diogritor


Posts : 869
Join date : 2008-01-13
Age : 32
Location : USA USA USA

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeWed Jan 16, 2008 8:36 am

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
germany's land army in 1941 were 3.5 million while russia had over 10
German tactics were superior to Soviet tactics in the early war and USSR did not have enough tanks of as good as or better quality than German tanks in early war to fend off the invation effectively on that stage.

mattabesta wrote:

stalin orderd infantry divisions armed with WWI riffels to attack tank divisions he never ordered retreats thus cousing many of the soviet deaths in WWII.
Retreating would have let German troops advance further into Soviet territory at a faster rate.

mattabesta wrote:

Soviet union had a population of 175 millon while germany had 67
According to official data, USSR had a population of 168 million by 1939.
And even so, what does this imply? That USSR had more manpower? If that's what you meant, yes and I don't what does that debate.

If you imply that manpower superiority of USSR made it a stronger country than Germany, yes, it's partially true being one of the factors of why USSR fended Germany off.

If you imply that this should have meant that USSR had less losses, then, you're wrong. As I said, in the early war German tactics were better and USSR did not have enough tanks of comparable or better quality than Germans nor enough good enough anti-tank weapons to effectively stop them.
Germany lost because it took on the war in three fronts..should have never attack the Soviet Union. I am not educated on the matter..why did he attack the USSR in the first place?
Back to top Go down
mattabesta
Chairman of the Supreme Council
mattabesta


Posts : 3936
Join date : 2007-12-23
Age : 29
Location : Iceland

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: the russians   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeWed Jan 16, 2008 2:25 pm

the russians would have had more men to man theyer mssev tank force itf stalin hadn't exicuted evryone how knew how to use them

and tactical retret can be the best thing to do when the enemy has nearly surounded you army
Back to top Go down
http://Pichunter.com
mattabesta
Chairman of the Supreme Council
mattabesta


Posts : 3936
Join date : 2007-12-23
Age : 29
Location : Iceland

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: germany lost   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeWed Jan 16, 2008 2:52 pm

germany lost to man power . germany was outnumberd 5:1
stalin was the reson the soviets nearly lost.
btw i have 15 books on WWII each one a4 size and 200 pages
Back to top Go down
http://Pichunter.com
Zealot_Kommunizma
Hero of the World Republic



Posts : 5413
Join date : 2007-12-06
Age : 35
Location : Mexico/Russia/Worl

Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitimeWed Jan 16, 2008 4:27 pm

Diogritor wrote:

Germany lost because it took on the war in three fronts..should have never attack the Soviet Union. I am not educated on the matter..why did he attack the USSR in the first place?

Yeah, taking three fronts indeed made Germany weaker.

He attacked the USSR for many reasons being these the main:
1. Opposition of systems: Hitler acted to protect a free-market capitalism and expand an empire to make Germany hegemonic not only in Europe but in the whole world.
2. Hitler needed resources to fuel both his industry and war Machine and no other country in Europe had as many resources, specially speaking of arable land and oil, and of course labour-force which he would take in form of Soviet slaves.
Back to top Go down
http://unitedrevleftfront.forumotion.com/
Sponsored content





Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)   Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR) Icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Did USSR work? (And impact of WWII in USSR)
Back to top 
Page 1 of 6Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 Similar topics
-
»  Otterbox Impact Case For iPhone 4
» The USSR was it a success? Real discussion
» Defence of Stalin's USSR
» USSR Anthem- Westernized
» Gimn CCCP - Anthem of the USSR

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
World Republic :: Capitol of the World Republic :: People's Library-
Jump to: