True Government

I think that if we one day unite the world, we should stay true to Karl Marx's vision of a stateless society. If we have a government it will eventually grow too powerful and become a dictatorship. reply if you support or oppose.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

That picture is funny :3

But i think this should be in..idk...erm..red qeuar..memebr intro.?

Oh hi Calinis! (assuming its you!).

welcome back!


so, how was your time away from WR, "comrade".

Liche wrote:

Oh hi Calinis! (assuming its you!).

welcome back!


so, how was your time away from WR, "comrade".

Come to think of it...yar..it could be calinis ...-.-

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I think that if we one day unite the world, we should stay true to Karl Marx's vision of a stateless society. If we have a government it will eventually grow too powerful and become a dictatorship. reply if you support or oppose.

ah.... if only the world was perfect!

Obvisously its not. Sorry. It's never gonna be perfect.
-Yeah, government can POSSIBLY become dictatorship, but, as you can see by yourself, countries aren't all under dicature.
- Actually, human needs authority. We need authority to apply justice.
-The perfection for you isn't necessary the perfection for me ; All people have different way to think and to act. How can you be equal beyond differences? Everybody cannot have the same privileges, for example, a policeman can have. Society needs police, but police is authority, and the moment you have authority, there can be power abuse. In any case you'll have authority, in any case power abuse will be possible. sorry.

Liche wrote:

Oh hi Calinis! (assuming its you!).

welcome back!


so, how was your time away from WR, "comrade".

He is not calinis, I checked his IP, btw his name is the same like of the guy I invited through Youtube.

Lilith wrote:

ah.... if only the world was perfect!

If only that was at all relevent.

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- Actually, human needs authority. We need authority to apply justice.

Capitalism itself is injustice. And the only was to do away with it is with social revolution from the grassroots, which is democratic (in its true sense), and not at all authoritarian.

And yes, humans rely on authority to an extent. But to what extent? If you are learning arithmetic in school, you will obviously defer to the authority of the mathematician. But coercive authority is hardly necessary for justice. And it's hardly necessary for our survival (which is what you are implying when you say humans "need" authority).

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-The perfection for you isn't necessary the perfection for me

... You're the one who brought up perfection. This comrade fellow said nothing of the sort. As such, this talk is irrelevant.

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All people have different way to think and to act. How can you be equal beyond differences? Everybody cannot have the same privileges, for example, a policeman can have.

For the vast majority the revolutionary left seeks to abolish the police. The police only become necessary in a society when there is the wedge of private property thrust between the people. The police are only necessary classes generate society is split between the haves and have-nots.

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Society needs police, but police is authority, and the moment you have authority, there can be power abuse.

That's why coercive authority needs abolishing. That's why capitalism needs abolishing. Society, again, only needs police as a force of repression. They only serve to keep the lower class in place. They may not only arrest the have-nots (only somewhere around 90% of 'criminals'), but this is merely necessary so they cannot be said to be overtly oppressive (of course, this would invoke mass rebellion, which wouldn't bode well for the capitalist economy).

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In any case you'll have authority, in any case power abuse will be possible. sorry.

I'm sorry you are so blinded to the reality of things. Maybe your short-sightedness will fade with age, or with the crises that capitalism is now undergoing due to its inherent nature.

Yea man, sorry for thinking you were Calinis.


But I think what your saying COULD happen, but not really any time soon.

We could still have a council for dealing with crime or captialists trying to retake the government. I know that it is hard for the people to govern it self but there is still a small chance it could work.
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"We ether crush captialism or admit defeat."

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Capitalism itself is injustice

No, capitalism is a means for organizing society's scarce resources. It's neither justice nor injustice. It's the only way that works.

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Society, again, only needs police as a force of repression

So the police officer who arrests the murderer is only oppressing us by riding society of scum? So the fact that they are protecting further people from being killed is oppression?

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They only serve to keep the lower class in place.

The lower class isn't trapped into their position and can escape. Sometimes it's a little bit more difficult than others, but it is possible. The police prevent harm to others by eliminating those that cause harm in order for others to feel secure.

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only somewhere around 90% of 'criminals'

Can you tell me where you get this statistic from? And what do you consider a "have-not"? Compared to what? I have food and water and shelter and water and everything I need, compared to a child in Africa who lacks these essential survival items. To them I would be considered a "have", but to the million dollar folk with their condos and frequent vacations and all that sort, I would be considered a "have not".

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but this is merely necessary so they cannot be said to be overtly oppressive

Can you show me a link that provides evidence towards that enlightening conclussion please? If someone commits a crime, regardless of your class, you will be arrested. You will be tried and will recieve the coresponding jail sentence. Although the justice system isn't efficient at all times, it is certainly not a tool used to "oppress" the working class. Are you telling me that if i were a multimillionare who killed someone I would have a lower jail sentence than a poorer individual?

If you're going to make outlandish claims, wouldn't it only be logical to give your position some merit to state your sources?

Yes, police are good! With out them there would be much more corruption and crime.

calinis wrote:

It's the only way that works.

I find it funny how the only basis people have to support capitalism as 'working' is the fact it continues to exist.

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I find it funny how the only basis people have to support capitalism as 'working' is the fact it continues to exist.

How have other economic systems collapsed at the smallest crises, but capitalism continued to flourish even after the likes of the great depression?

calinis wrote:

How have other economic systems collapsed at the smallest crises,

Socialism has proved apt for getting countries OUT of crises and KEEPING them out. See Scandinavia during the Depression, and the fact the Depression barely affected the Soviet Union.

calinis wrote:

but capitalism continued to flourish even after the likes of the great depression?

And it took a World War to make it do so.

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Socialism has proved apt for getting countries OUT of crises and KEEPING them out. See Scandinavia during the Depression, and the fact the Depression barely affected the Soviet Union.

The fact that the Soviet Union was unaffected was that they did not have market ties with the rest of the world. The economic conditions in the Soviet Union during the 1930s were way worse anyways.

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And it took a World War to make it do so.

It doesn't mean other factors could have pulled it out. FDR's New Deal didn't work because more government intervention was bound to fail. Providing the wealthy with tax cuts would have been ideal considering that with more money they could invest in businesses, thus providing the people with opportunities and encouraging competition, thus lowering the price, thinking in the interest of the people. Aside from the great depression of the 1930s, other recessions have been evident where the economy was pulled right back up and strong again afterwards. Why has capitalism lasted this long?

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But that's only because it started with much less than other countries. After Bolshewiks took over in 1917, countries like Britain were almost fully industrialised, but Russia under Tsar wasn't industrialising much at all. Britain, Germany, France and USA had a good advantage because they started with industrial revolution much sooner than Russia.

True, I do realize that that Stalin did industrialize Russia (as one of the only positives he did), but even 50 years later, the USSR was no match to countries like the US, even inspite of the economic depression they endured and other recessions.

calinis wrote:

True, I do realize that that Stalin did industrialize Russia (as one of the only positives he did), but even 50 years later, the USSR was no match to countries like the US, even inspite of the economic depression they endured and other recessions.

USSR was by far the most powerful economy in the world. It's industrial output surpassed that of any nation in most key resources.

The only problem was the capitalisticity of its economy which is what sank it.

Well the US and USSR economy were pretty close. At times US had a better one and USSR had a better one. But for many years, USSR was superior (around when USSR first became a country).

Liche wrote:

Well the US and USSR economy were pretty close. At times US had a better one and USSR had a better one. But for many years, USSR was superior (around when USSR first became a country).

USSR's industrail output in resources like Iron, Cement, Steel and Oil were for most of modern history far superior to those of USA. Its military industrail output was also higher and, hadn't USSR been capitalist, it wouldn't have had any economic crisis.

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USSR's industrail output in resources like Iron, Cement, Steel and Oil were for most of modern history far superior to those of USA. Its military industrail output was also higher and, hadn't USSR been capitalist, it wouldn't have had any economic crisis.

Can you give me that link please?

calinis wrote:

Can you give me that link please?

I'm sorry but no. Search for yourself, I have that in printed sources.

Why does this source say otherwise?

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1808984

Calinis, check the library.

Books are much more reliable then the internet.