Libertarian/Capitalist group

Okay, let me try going about this in another way. If you're so sure that Liberalism is a left-wing ideology, then what clear comparisons can you make between it and Socialism?

I should just also mention that your idea that Liberalism is "not about freedom" is totally fucking wrong. I don't know how else to say that. It's wrong.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/ - check out this link and read the first section about Liberalism and the debate about liberty. Then read the part about "New Liberalism", which is what you're talking about.

Socialism is an extreme form of liberalism.

Here's the thing: You can argue that liberalism was set up to protect freedom, maybe it does in your country, who knows? The fact remains, however, if you look at the Democratic party in the US, aka "liberals", you see programs to expand government programs, to increase taxes, and other things. Anything the government gets involved in, from highways to corporate bailouts, increases its size, increases its power, and increases the dynamic ways in which it can fuck over those it has power over. If in your country, Liberal means "protect the free market", then I'll concede that I'm a liberal: in YOUR country. I'm not in your country and I refuse to be labelled as something like that.

Also, personal liberty is not compatible with large government.

nillerz wrote:

Socialism is an extreme form of liberalism.

Here's the thing: You can argue that liberalism was set up to protect freedom, maybe it does in your country, who knows? The fact remains, however, if you look at the Democratic party in the US, aka "liberals", you see programs to expand government programs, to increase taxes, and other things. Anything the government gets involved in, from highways to corporate bailouts, increases its size, increases its power, and increases the dynamic ways in which it can fuck over those it has power over. If in your country, Liberal means "protect the free market", then I'll concede that I'm a liberal: in YOUR country. I'm not in your country and I refuse to be labelled as something like that.

Also, personal liberty is not compatible with large government.

That's it, I'm done. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. You have no idea what you're talking about, you won't be rid of your delusion that your US-centric, economic-centric notion of the political spectrum is correct, so I'm going to put my time to much better use.

nillerz wrote:

Socialism is an extreme form of liberalism.

Here's the thing: You can argue that liberalism was set up to protect freedom, maybe it does in your country, who knows? The fact remains, however, if you look at the Democratic party in the US, aka "liberals", you see programs to expand government programs, to increase taxes, and other things. Anything the government gets involved in, from highways to corporate bailouts, increases its size, increases its power, and increases the dynamic ways in which it can fuck over those it has power over. If in your country, Liberal means "protect the free market", then I'll concede that I'm a liberal: in YOUR country. I'm not in your country and I refuse to be labelled as something like that.

Also, personal liberty is not compatible with large government.

I hate to tell you, man, but I'm an American.

I'm just saying that, historically, Liberalism usually refers to how we have been defining it within left-wing circles: a right-wing ideology that is based on markets and individual freedom. And, in some parts of the world, it still retains that meaning. But we in the U.S. really took the language and screwed it up here. I think if you take a look at some of the political parties around the world that would be described as "right-wing", a lot of them tend to refer to themselves as "Liberal". A few good examples are the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy from the Netherlands, and the Liberal Party from Iceland.

American Liberalism is a strange thing, but I wouldn't suggest that it is Socialist - nor would I think that Socialism is an extreme form of Liberalism. It still has its tendencies towards market solutions, and it has always supported individualism; from an American historical perspective, we see this mostly in the Liberal opposition to labor unions during the late 1800's and the early 1900's. Labor unions were maligned by Liberals as being collectivist - i.e. anti-individualist - and against competitive markets.

American Liberalism is a weird thing, and I think it's silly to dogmatically say that it's either left-wing or right-wing. It has elements of both, just as most other things do, but I would say that it is more right-wing than anything else.

Check out John Maynard Keynes' General Theory. It's a pretty thorough account of the economic system most American Liberals adhere to.

nillerz wrote:

Socialism is an extreme form of liberalism.

Here's the thing: You can argue that liberalism was set up to protect freedom, maybe it does in your country, who knows? The fact remains, however, if you look at the Democratic party in the US, aka "liberals", you see programs to expand government programs, to increase taxes, and other things. Anything the government gets involved in, from highways to corporate bailouts, increases its size, increases its power, and increases the dynamic ways in which it can fuck over those it has power over. If in your country, Liberal means "protect the free market", then I'll concede that I'm a liberal: in YOUR country. I'm not in your country and I refuse to be labelled as something like that.

...The Democrats are right-wing conservatives.

Okay, arguing about this won't get us anywhere, and since it is officially several weeks later, I'm just going to say that I think there should be a group that

-Supports a free market
-Supports a free individual
-Supports a restricted government
-Supports minarchal taxation
-Doesn't support anarchy

none of the current groups actually are that. 9 people think we should have this group I've described in my posts. 4 say no. I think it's very obvious that the group should exist.

White group, please!