'classless society'

Liche wrote:

be a jack of all trades.

best at everything.

What is "everything"? What's "best"?

Liche wrote:

I'm not saying all people, just some ignorant westerners, I tend to put my self lower than others.

Ignorance is one of the enemies of socialism and for it to occur it must be attacked and destroyed. Anything else?

Zeal, you have good ideas, but that's all that they sound like. Ideas. It doesn't sound like you know how you'll actually implement half of this stuff, or how it will work. How changes will be made in the way you're saying. They certainly won't happen in YOURlifetime. Maybe in three or four generations, certainly not sooner than that.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Zeal, you have good ideas, but that's all that they sound like. Ideas. It doesn't sound like you know how you'll actually implement half of this stuff, or how it will work.

It's not like "I'll implement it". My role, just as the role of any revolutionaire is limited to do whatever I can to educate people in general about the realities of this system, do my best to get them to be as critic as possible, make my proposals and get them to draw conclusions by themselves.

I've been speaking with some workers in the construction company in which I worked, and with workers in the university where I used to assist, they did seem pretty interested, they asked several questions and did like my proposals.

No revolutionaire can tell exactly the way socialism will work for it's not just in his/her hands but in the hands of all workers. I can speak about my proposals to establish communism and some others' proposals and I can deffend my proposal. That's as far as I can go. If people like my proposal then I can further develop it and assist in its implementation.

What I can tell is this: socialism is a system in which all economy is controlled democratically by the workers in an egalitarian fashion. How will this be achieved? How will it exactly take place? There are varied answers for that.

The way I visualize it, there would be several councils per industries and per regions. There would be a council of experts and a council of workers. Experts would make proposals based on their knoweldge for everyone to evaluate them and decide on wether that should be implemented or not, or modified and how to implement it. Everyone would have a say and everyone would be able to make proposals which would be analysed by everyone and implemented just by those accepting it.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

How changes will be made in the way you're saying.

Changes will be product of people getting a higher degree of awareness and knowledge and the will for people to implement them.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

They certainly won't happen in YOURlifetime. Maybe in three or four generations, certainly not sooner than that.

That would certainly depend on wether I fail or not, wether I live enough or not and wether people get aware soon or not. I prefer to keep optimistic in these regards and I'll be at least a little satisfied if I see at least some considerable and promising progress prior to my death.

"Changes will be product of people getting a higher degree of awareness and knowledge and the will for people to implement them."

Dude, that tells me nothing. It doesn't MEAN anything. What, you're going to send them to school or something? Evidentally that doesn't always help.

"That would certainly depend on wether I fail or not, wether I live enough or not and wether people get aware soon or not. I prefer to keep optimistic in these regards and I'll be at least a little satisfied if I see at least some considerable and promising progress prior to my death."

No, I mean the changes themselves. It takes time, and there are people of this generation that will NOT change, USUALLY thanks to their God, or such. They teach their children, and while you can teach said children also, it won't be for several generations before people become "enlightened". You sound like your think I was talking about, say, the revolution itself. No. Might work, might not. I meant the minds of the people.

Revolutionaries are the same as Evangelist. They think every one that is smart believes the same thing they do. They also believe if you don't have the same views as the you are inferior in some way (and I heard from some one say that Xperson wasn't Socialist because they weren't fully mature yet, so in this way he sees them inferior to himself).

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

Dude, that tells me nothing. It doesn't MEAN anything. What, you're going to send them to school or something? Evidentally that doesn't always help.

School rarely serves as a means to increase awareness and get knowledge. Schools are limited by their educational programs which mainly serve the purpose of customizing the student into not only accepting the reality they have as an unalterable one, but also, serves to prepare them to assume the roles society imposes over them.

There are several methods through which I revoltionaire can assist in raising the level of awareness of people. One can talk directly to workers, teach through free schooling, distribute literary material, make people engage into discussions, engage in argumentation. It has helped in some cases and it will definitely be effective through more work and persistance. The masses are far more intelligent than what the priviledged elite wants everyone to believe.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

No, I mean the changes themselves. It takes time, and there are people of this generation that will NOT change, USUALLY thanks to their God, or such. They teach their children, and while you can teach said children also, it won't be for several generations before people become "enlightened".

I have got quite convinced catholics to question the church they have believed their whole life in. How? By presenting facts and explaining them and their origin. By explaining them some historical facts about their so beloved church and how it came here, about how they worship that fucking institution and why they shouldn't. Sometimes it's an easy task, other times it's more difficult.

For example, I tell them "How come you are here eating the cheapest food you can get and living in the same place where you work while that mother(child)-fucking Pope affords BMWs, hundreds of trips here and there, expensive clothing, 1st class medic treatments and so on?" or "How come can something as powerful as god and the saints need such a physically disabled, often incoherent individual to serve as his representative?" or "Isn't catholicism about sharing, about being humble? What's so humble about living in a gigantic palace with guards while lots of the people that follow you can hardly afford housing?" and then I tell them "Where do you think all that money comes from? From donations like the ones people like you give" and such things.

As I have said, I have no problem with people worshipping whatever they want as long as their beliefs do not affect 3rd parties. What I have a problem with is an institution that profits and excerts power through that religion.

And just as I can get people to question things based in arbitrary lies like the Catholic Church, I can get them to question things like capitalism. There is a reason why many people have changed their views towards this system and why this happens on a daily basis: they realize several facts they hadn't realized before, they acquire knowledges they haven't acquired before which allows them a whole different perspective.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

You sound like your think I was talking about, say, the revolution itself. No. Might work, might not. I meant the minds of the people.

I changed my mind from a zionistic fascist to a fervent communist; I've got a friend of mine who was a homophobic nazi (and who is by the way 3 years older than me) to consider socialism; I've met several people that used to be social democrats and became socialists; I've got religious roman catholics to question the catholic church and the legitimacy of their conditions as workers. I've got my aunt, who a year before deffended Mexico's president as literally "an angelical envoy from God to save Mexico" (I'm not kidding), to despise and question him.

I have just really never dedicated to this full-time or constantly like many other revolutionaires.

My contributions to these changes will depend on how I program my work as a revolutionaire, and I'm definitely working on that.

Liche wrote:

Revolutionaries are the same as Evangelist. They think every one that is smart believes the same thing they do.

You are absolutely wrong. What we know, though, is that most people don't have the necesary theoretical tools to understand properly their conditions and the origin of their conditions, that most people are not satisfied with their conditions and many constantly struggle, most often in utter futility, to change them. What we know is that most people don't have the tools to question the legitimacy of this status quo.

What we want is for people to count with these tools based completely on verifiable facts and scientific studies (not in a self-contradictory ancient fairy tale, referencing your comparison) and realize how illegitimate the system that reigns every aspect of their lives is and that they can change it.

Liche wrote:

They also believe if you don't have the same views as the you are inferior in some way

What the fuck?

Liche wrote:

(and I heard from some one say that Xperson wasn't Socialist because they weren't fully mature yet, so in this way he sees them inferior to himself).

Avoiding names doesn't serve to avoid slander Liche.

1st, calling someone immature is not saying that person is inferior to you. It's a fact that when you are a 13 year old boy you're much less mature than what you'll be when you will be 20 or 25, and I said this because I know who you are refering to. Else, claiming someone immature is something that can be demonstrated.

Now, what do I consider traits of immaturity and why would these imply people not being socialist? Well, greed is a good example of immaturity, lack of capability to empathize, lack of capability to analyse things, the need to feel superior to others is also a terrible sign of imaturity as well as part of a complex of inferiority since you consider yourself such an insignificant thing that you need to be better than others (it can also be product, though, of a need to have security in case others' superiority may compromise your integrity which is plausible in a hostile environment, but even so its a different very specific case). Snobism is another trait of immaturity (or of stupidity and low selfesteem, it really depends on the context). Being unable to understand things contextually.

All the aforementioned traits are the traits of someone that will reject socialism even when he/she knows what socialism is, and they are traits of immaturity.

I'm not saying you did say that, just using an example of what someone told me you said. But that persons shall remain nameless.

Liche wrote:

I'm not saying you did say that, just using an example of what someone told me you said. But that persons shall remain nameless.

Irrelevant to discussion and the point was already adressed above.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Liche wrote:

They also believe if you don't have the same views as the you are inferior in some way

What the fuck?

He's refering to evangelicals. And he's right. Trust me, I know. I live in one of the most religious, and "oodly" most racist towns in Canada. Hell, until only a couple of months ago there was a law where black people couldn't walk outside past 11 pm.

And no, that's not a joke.

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

He's refering to evangelicals. And he's right. Trust me, I know. I live in one of the most religious, and "oodly" most racist towns in Canada. Hell, until only a couple of months ago there was a law where black people couldn't walk outside past 11 pm.

And no, that's not a joke.

I know, evangelists are really crazy fucks. What I was surprised with is Liche's comparison of revolutionaires with them, specially in those regards.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

He's refering to evangelicals. And he's right. Trust me, I know. I live in one of the most religious, and "oodly" most racist towns in Canada. Hell, until only a couple of months ago there was a law where black people couldn't walk outside past 11 pm.

And no, that's not a joke.

I know, evangelists are really crazy fucks. What I was surprised with is Liche's comparison of revolutionaires with them, specially in those regards.

but you have some much in common it honestly makes me laugh.

Liche wrote:

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Tyrong Kojy wrote:

He's refering to evangelicals. And he's right. Trust me, I know. I live in one of the most religious, and "oodly" most racist towns in Canada. Hell, until only a couple of months ago there was a law where black people couldn't walk outside past 11 pm.

And no, that's not a joke.

I know, evangelists are really crazy fucks. What I was surprised with is Liche's comparison of revolutionaires with them, specially in those regards.

but you have some much in common it honestly makes me laugh.

That's cute.

Liche wrote:

but you have some much in common it honestly makes me laugh.

So I disprove your damn point and all you can do is repeat it?

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

Liche wrote:

but you have some much in common it honestly makes me laugh.

So I disprove your damn point and all you can do is repeat it?

you never disproved it.

Liche wrote:

you never disproved it.

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:

You are absolutely wrong. What we know, though, is that most people don't have the necesary theoretical tools to understand properly their conditions and the origin of their conditions, that most people are not satisfied with their conditions and many constantly struggle, most often in utter futility, to change them. What we know is that most people don't have the tools to question the legitimacy of this status quo.

What we want is for people to count with these tools based completely on verifiable facts and scientific studies (not in a self-contradictory ancient fairy tale, referencing your comparison) and realize how illegitimate the system that reigns every aspect of their lives is and that they can change it.

Yeah, I quite disproved it.