Who does political work offline?

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the forging of a black nation?

You seem to be spouting capitalist propaganda.

That isn't their position. They are just as socialist as any other group, but they just happened to be formed by blacks to protect black people (and other oppressed minorities) from a racist and unequal state that seeked to have them oppressed. Unfortunately they believe in vanguard, which i don't like. But they still have what's best for the proletariat at heart.

By the way, I'm not black. I'm just about as white as they come.

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and the evaluate society in races rather than classes

Haha, who told you that?

Ten point program

MarxistFreeman wrote:

yeah but we aren't quite in a revolutionary situation now are we?

lol

so in the meantime

THAT is what we do

We are all a part of the vanguard at this point in time, since we, as socialists, represent the interests of the proletariat until a time of popular revolution.

that has no real class content...

and I have read the ten point program...while those things are great and necessary...it seems like it is just "a bigger piece of the pie" politics rather than socialist revolution.

and number 10 is very nationalist...they sample socialist literature but they pick and choose what they believe in and distort socialist/communism in the process...

they champion the needs of "our people" rather than ALL of the oppressed...

meh...

who is "we"?

^^ I don't agree with all of their ten-point program, i was just showing that it isn't about race to them.

And nit-picking their points just creates demarcation among the already weak revolutionary left. I'm not about to pick and choose my comrades based on a few disagreements. Capitalism is too powerful, and we are too weak.

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who is "we"?

The black panther party.

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they champion the needs of "our people" rather than ALL of the oppressed...

"our people" refers to all of the oppressed.

Yes, they believe in upholding the government, which i, if it were my choice, would never allow. But the actions they take part in are good ways of forwarding the proletarians struggle for emancipation. Just because their end-game may conflict with mine, doesn't mean we cannot ally with eachother for the time being, in which our goals coincide. We mutually benefit from using each other.

isn't that opportunist?

We don't agree with all of mumia's program but we unite with him and defend him in solidarity with our class brothers...we will criticize the politics of the Panthers and the MOVE while still defending them against racism...nit-picing their politics is ESSENTIAL in further strengthening the working class and oppressed against capitalist illusions...

the panthers ARE STILL my black class brothers and i sill still unite with them in solidarity while reserving the right to challenge their politics in the hopes of winning them over to class struggle politics.

MarxistFreeman wrote:

isn't that opportunist?

To some degree, i suppose. But what's wrong with opportunism in this regard?

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the panthers ARE STILL my black class brothers and i sill still unite with them in solidarity while reserving the right to challenge their politics.

Isn't this pretty much what i said?

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in the hopes of winning them over to class struggle politics

So you've told them about your concerns?

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But what's wrong with opportunism in this regard?

Really. I don't see what's so wrong about it.

yes i express my views

and it is bad because you give the illusion that you agree wholeheartedly and that there aren't any differences. It's deceiving and wrong

Yay, mark's back! So yeah, I guess it is wrong to use them like that.

MarxistFreeman wrote:

yes i express my views

That's good, but i doubt they cared.

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and it is bad because you give the illusion that you agree wholeheartedly and that there aren't any differences. It's deceiving and wrong

No, i didn't. I'm not part of the organization; if they think i am with them 'wholeheartedly', that was a [stupid] inference that they made all on their own.

I deceived no one. I signed no contract, and never gave my word to them. And don't say wrong unless you are going to back that up; i have a problem with bringing morals into an argument (or anywhere for that matter)

Oh I thought you were pretending to agree with them completely. In that case, it doesn't seem like opportunism.

^^No, screw that. I don't believe in joining groups, really. I am with Malatesta when he said that you should be part of a group to accomplish something, not to just be part of a group. I hold my allegiance to the cause of egalitarianism, not any particular group of socialists.

I hold my allegiance to the proletariat. I join groups to advance the interest of the proletariat.

^^ Good. I hope you remain that way. From my experience, titles and multitudes of organisations and splits within them just cause more demarcation. That's why i consider myself an anti-labelist, if anything. and that's why, as i've said before in another thread (i believe it was the human nature thread), i am more than willing to work with a multitude of different groups.

The ICL won over the most revolutionary of the Black Panther party and they are still with us today. The rest of the Leaders are mostly either in prison or in the Capitalist democratic party

Just last week we spoke to some ex-panthers and they are going to study with us

I think all Marxists should join one group to discuss Marxism, even if they don't all agree. Then we will be united especially if the party uses democratic centralism, which I now support.

I love you emy

Pannekoek wrote:

I think all Marxists should join one group to discuss Marxism, even if they don't all agree. Then we will be united especially if the party uses democratic centralism, which I now support.

Even us reformist?

Whoah there. I am just a young child. I'm not yet ready to get into a physical realtionship. Especially with a male that's 4 years older than me. Btw, how do you join the ICL.

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The ICL won over the most revolutionary of the Black Panther party and they are still with us today. The rest of the Leaders are mostly either in prison or in the Capitalist democratic party

Just last week we spoke to some ex-panthers and they are going to study with us

That's great, there is a lot of miscommunication about goals and means within the party. If it dissolves into a purely reformist party, then i'll be happy; at least then i know the ICL is getting stronger. Unfortunately, though, there is still some talent and good people within the panther party whose talents would be wasted at that point; hopefully they'll find their way out if this happens.

What's bad about the ICL?

He is not saying it's bad.

To NJNP, we seek to win those great members over to class struggle politics and revolutionary INTEGRATIONISM rather than black nationalism.

to emy, you have to demonstrate to party members that you have a full and thorough knowledge of marxism, agree to adhere to the programaatic discipline as a party (democratic centralism), and demonstrate your ability to defend the party's points and then write and application. This is usually a fairly long process

Oh. That doesn't sound fun. And anyway, I agree that a party needs to teach the workers but still I don't understand why the party needs to be professional revolutionaries carrying out the revolutino for the workers.

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To NJNP, we seek to win those great members over to class struggle politics and revolutionary INTEGRATIONISM rather than black nationalism.

I wish you, and your party, the best of luck.

pannekoek wrote:

Oh. That doesn't sound fun. And anyway, I agree that a party needs to teach the workers but still I don't understand why the party needs to be professional revolutionaries carrying out the revolutino for the workers.

Then you may not be ICL material. They firmly believe in vanguardism. I don't necessarily disagree to having a vanguard since, by definition, we communists are indeed the vanguard, but there must be certain precautions taken to ensure they don't give up on the revolution once they (vanguard) become the elite (like stalin).

we aren't seeking to carry it out FOR the workers we are the revolutionary leadership into socialist revolution and will help the found a marxist workers state afterwards. As Class antagonisms become more acute, winning them over to maxism will become much easier, We seek to organize the un organize workers and it would be foolhardy to believe that we can win every single worker over in a time of revolution. It will be the Vanguard's duty to find these workers and win them over to the side of the Marxists during such a time of sharp class struggle

and Studying with them is quite fun. They are nice people, they challenge you intellectually, you get the chance to sell the Worker's Vanguard paper in public and at union houses and debate with adults and make them feel dumb, you make friends and become close to your comrades, they are seriously like my family...they let me stay overnight before protests and will pay for my dinner when my mother is being bitchy...

they are the best thing to have ever happened to me