Who does political work offline?

Yeah that is the only part I disagree on with mark. I don't support the vanguard carrying out the revolutin for the workers and I think all power should go to the soviets.

EDIT: So you don't want to revolt for the workers and you will give all power to the soviets? If so I will support the ICL.

I am talking about the revolution explicitly.

After the capitalist state is smashed.

The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets

There is no material basis for corruption in a workers state and no one will have a monopoly on violence. Armed self defense my friend. All power will be given to the worker soviets

quote by lenin

"These gentlemen work today, obeying the capitalists; they will work even better tomorrow, obeying the armed workers"

No one wil have a monopoly on violence and so will have no more power than anyone else

Hmm... I'll consider this for a while. I'll get back to you if I convert to Trotskyism.

tis' inevitable...

that was a quote from State and Revolution btw

Inevitable that I convert to trotskyism? Yeah, probably is. I used to be an anarchist. At this rate I'll be a stalinist in no time lol. I do want to hear NJNP's input on this though.

I do too

and don't even joke about stalinism...


*shudders*

I'm comin, I'm comin...

Quote :

"These gentlemen work today, obeying the capitalists; they will work even better tomorrow, obeying the armed workers"

Unfortunately this was not the case (or even close to it).

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The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets

How can you be sure of this? I mean, it didn't work in the USSR; why would it work in our (for the sake of this debate) revolution?

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The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets

If the workers revolt and democratic soviet bodies are created, what is the point of the 'vanguard' staying intact? At this point they should just become a portion of the rest of the revolutionaries, no? I don't see the point of a vanguard but to start the wave of revolution and to set up democratic revolution. Past that, if they have no authority as you claim they wouldn't, they aren't necessary.

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There is no material basis for corruption in a workers state

There is if it is possible to gain wealth, power, etc. How would you suggest we keep the vanguard from this folly that has snared certain of its members all revolutions in the past?

Good reply, NJNP. I await mark's response.

It's on me now to make sure you don't become a trot? haha, uh-oh, the pressures on.

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:

I'm comin, I'm comin...

Quote :

"These gentlemen work today, obeying the capitalists; they will work even better tomorrow, obeying the armed workers"

Unfortunately this was not the case (or even close to it).

can you go into detal?

Quote :

The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets

How can you be sure of this? I mean, it didn't work in the USSR; why would it work in our (for the sake of this debate) revolution?

It wasn't a matter of people being inherently greed, it was a matter of opportunism made possible by Stalin's political counterrevolution. Which occured BECAUSE of the menshevik tendency having such close ties and relations with SURROUNDING CAPITALIST nations.

Quote :

The workers will revolt and the vanguard will help organize and make sure all power IS given to the soviets

If the workers revolt and democratic soviet bodies are created, what is the point of the 'vanguard' staying intact? At this point they should just become a portion of the rest of the revolutionaries, no? I don't see the point of a vanguard but to start the wave of revolution and to set up democratic revolution. Past that, if they have no authority as you claim they wouldn't, they aren't necessary.

you are totally correct. I am sorry i gave the impression they'd be needed past that.

Quote :

There is no material basis for corruption in a workers state

There is if it is possible to gain wealth, power, etc. How would you suggest we keep the vanguard from this folly that has snared certain of its members all revolutions in the past?

there shouldn't be a vanguard past that.

I decided to become a Trotskyist.

I decided to because I think that the vanguard does not have to be just a small group of people it can be a lot of people in fact I think the goal of the vanguard should be to make everyone like a vanguard in that they are all revolutionaries with knowledge of class struggle and committed to workers liberation. Is that a good description of it?

MarxistFreeman wrote:

can you go into detal?

Tomorrow, i've gotta take off.

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It wasn't a matter of people being inherently greed

Never claimed it was. I don't believe greed is a part of human nature; some, however, have been bred that way and will succumb to temptation if given the opportunity.

I'll reply to the rest that i see necessary tomorrow. So bear with me, eh?

Pannekoek wrote:

I decided to because I think that the vanguard does not have to be just a small group of people it can be a lot of people in fact I think the goal of the vanguard should be to make everyone like a vanguard in that they are all revolutionaries with knowledge of class struggle and committed to workers liberation. Is that a good description of it?

*tear* i'm so proud of you


and NJNP sure

but they succumbed to CAPITALIST temptation. Considering that the USSR was struggling to industrialize, peoples needs weren't being met and so competition arises...

So what does the quote in you sig mean?:"they dont know what the fuck they are talking about"

I was talking to monokifol (or however you spell it) for a while and we talked about the reformist left and other things and I opened with "They don't know what the fuck they are talking about" every other time...

inside joke i guess

But now I am an insider also.

MarxistFreeman wrote:

I was talking to monokifol (or however you spell it) for a while and we talked about the reformist left and other things and I opened with "They don't know what the fuck they are talking about" every other time...

inside joke i guess

Its true...they dont

Most people don't that's why we teach them.

MarxistFreeman wrote:

Pannekoek wrote:

I decided to because I think that the vanguard does not have to be just a small group of people it can be a lot of people in fact I think the goal of the vanguard should be to make everyone like a vanguard in that they are all revolutionaries with knowledge of class struggle and committed to workers liberation. Is that a good description of it?

*tear* i'm so proud of you

and NJNP sure

Whatever...

heh, just playin. I don't mind what you call yourself, as long as you stay committed to revolution comrade.

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"They don't know what the fuck they are talking about"

Oh, i always thought that you meant capitalists, or politicians, or somethin like that.

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can you go into detal?

Actually, i was just sayin that the workers weren't armed and ready to self-defend the 'workers state'. If anything, they shoulda been to keep that opportunist Stalin outta "office"(for lack of a better term).

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there shouldn't be a vanguard past that.

Past what? When do you see the vanguard dissolving?

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Its true...they dont

Wait, does this mean you left the CPUSA? And left reformism?

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:

Wait, does this mean you left the CPUSA? And left reformism?

lol no, I forgot its hard to see sarcasm online, I am still against the shedding of unnecessary blood and for a peaceful revolution down through social reform. We need to gradually move into a classless society so we can re-condition people. With a revolution we will have an endless war between factions, the government might break down but there will still be those that fight. If we do it gradually we can show the people how good the system works and win them over without guns.

... So i don't get to shoot... anyone?

NoJustice.NoPeace wrote:

... So i don't get to shoot... anyone?

I said unnecessary, anyone who is a physical threat to the cause is fair game i guess. but political opposition will be swept away with the reform.

haha, ya, i know what you mean. i was just messin around.