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 Deportation of Stalin into Gulag

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Voice of Reason
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Feb 01, 2008 10:18 pm

I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 12:18 am

Voice of Reason wrote:
I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

your joking Very Happy.................. right ?
(im asking this couse i have meet people who actually belive that)
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 1:27 am

Voice of Reason wrote:
I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.
your joking iknow pepole hows grandparents dide in the camps.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 3:21 am

Voice of Reason wrote:
I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

Seriously....what the hell?
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Riddler
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 3:30 am

Voice of Reason wrote:
Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I've heard also that in Austria you can get in jail for denying that Hitler killed 6 000 000 jews. So much for a european democracy Laughing
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 5:03 am

Riddler wrote:

I've heard also that in Austria you can get in jail for denying that Hitler killed 6 000 000 jews.

Although undemocratic, it's still better than holocaust denial in my opinion.
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Liche
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 6:56 am

I voted to put him in the Gulag, even tho a lot of the bad things we hear are probably rumors, propaganda etc. I voted to this way because I think the power got to him....he did practically turn the world against Socialism/Communism.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 7:48 am

Liche wrote:
I voted to put him in the Gulag, even tho a lot of the bad things we hear are probably rumors, propaganda etc. I voted to this way because I think the power got to him....he did practically turn the world against Socialism/Communism.

The power didn't get to him, he had been manipulating party politics in order to raise his own position long before he came to power and I'm sure he had at least some notion of what he would do once got there.
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ilych
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 10:48 am

oligarch wrote:

The power didn't get to him, he had been manipulating party politics in order to raise his own position long before he came to power and I'm sure he had at least some notion of what he would do once got there.
QFT
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 7:09 pm

Voice of Reason wrote:
I just have to agree with you. Same here in Austria. Everyone says bah Hitler killed millions of jews.
I know that's only american propaganda. Those ovens in Auschwitz were only for baking bread and stuff. I once read a book, where it says that most of his crimes were made up by american propaganda. With the simple use of mathemagical logic one is able to say that you can't just kill six million jews. Also I haven't seen the slightest evidence for mass killings. Just some ashes on the floor in the camps, which could be the result of a great BBQ.

Ok, this paralelism is horribly wrong. You speak as if the affirmations that Stalin killed 20+ million people were as well documented and supported by as strong evidence as the Holocaust is. The magnitud of Stalin's executions are claimed to be tens of times larger than the Holocaust, yet, there's much less evidence on them even taking into account the great ammount of people that would be implied or know about those executions.

The Holocaust is EXTREMELY well documented and supported by an inmense plethora of very, very strong and substatiated evidence. Mathematical logic supports Holocaust evidence. How? It's well documented how 1rd of the whole Jewish population was killed during it. The concentration camps do exist and there are Nazi databases and survivors.

Stalin's executions are not half as well documented. Claims of Stalin's regime killing 100 million soviets defy mathematical logic for the next reason:

According to 1916s census there were 181 million people in the Russian Empire. World War I, which took the lives of 3 million soldiers and several million Russians through food shortages was followed by the Civil War which itself created economical dificulties that lead as well to a prolongation of famines which were intensified by droughts and the Kulak vs. Regime conflicts. By 1939 USSR counted with 169 million people. From 1916 to 1939, in a 26 years span USSR had lost 12 million people, mainly as a consequence of War. From that span, Stalin had ruled only since 1927, that is 12 years.

From 1941 to 1945 nearly 30 million Soviets lost their lives in WWII. Stalin reigned other 8 years after the war.

So counting from 1927 and from 1945 until 1953 that makes 20 years of peace time Stalinist regime, both in Post-War scenaries.


By the time Stalin acquired power USSR counted with 146 million people and by the time Stalin died USSR counted with about 185 million people.

If Stalin had killed 100 million people it should have been in two batches, from 1927 until 1939 and from 1945 until 1953 and USSR should have counted by 1927 with a population of at least 315 million adding to this number the lives lost in WWII and taking into account the inter-war and post war infant mortality rate.

That claim states that nearly 33 million families were exterminated by Stalin and yet people were unaware of or agreed with that. The chances are that these 33 million families, these 100 million people "researchers" claim Stalin killed, had links with at least 80 or 90% of Soviet population making impossible such large executions to be as weakly evidenced as they are.

I wonder where's the strong evidence, and I mean strong enough evidence supporting such ridiculous claims that even defy mathematical logic?
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Comrade Pollett
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 8:27 pm

mattabesta wrote:
BolshevikClock wrote:
industrialization and victory it the highest price
what??
i don't get it?
I mean there is no way to define Stalin as a hero or villain
when you use one it condradicts the other
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 9:14 pm

BolshevikClock wrote:
mattabesta wrote:
BolshevikClock wrote:
industrialization and victory it the highest price
what??
i don't get it?
I mean there is no way to define Stalin as a hero or villain
when you use one it condradicts the other
ant leader would have seen the senes in industralaysation(soz)
my books say he killed 8-20 million undirectly and directly.
most of those deaths were becuse of his new idear for farming wich killed a minimum of 5 million.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 10:05 pm

mattabesta wrote:

ant leader would have seen the senes in industralaysation(soz)
my books say he killed 8-20 million undirectly and directly.
most of those deaths were becuse of his new idear for farming wich killed a minimum of 5 million.

To say someone killed undirectly a population, the intention to kill should be taken into account. The conflict with kulaks had no intention to cause famines yet it caused it for both Kulaks' renuence and Stalin's wayto deal with them. But it can't count like undirect killing.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 02, 2008 11:51 pm

Zealot_Kommunizma wrote:
mattabesta wrote:

ant leader would have seen the senes in industralaysation(soz)
my books say he killed 8-20 million undirectly and directly.
most of those deaths were becuse of his new idear for farming wich killed a minimum of 5 million.

To say someone killed undirectly a population, the intention to kill should be taken into account. The conflict with kulaks had no intention to cause famines yet it caused it for both Kulaks' renuence and Stalin's wayto deal with them. But it can't count like undirect killing.

If he had only killed kulaks, that wouldn't have been so bad, but most of the people he killed who he claimed were kulaks were not kulaks at all, they were simply opposed to him but he said that both classes become stronger under socialism and that's why there were more kulaks after the Revolution than before it which clearly makes not sense.
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Zealot_Kommunizma
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 03, 2008 12:10 am

oligarch wrote:


If he had only killed kulaks, that wouldn't have been so bad, but most of the people he killed who he claimed were kulaks were not kulaks at all, they were simply opposed to him but he said that both classes become stronger under socialism and that's why there were more kulaks after the Revolution than before it which clearly makes not sense.

Yeah, I agree.
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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 5:29 am

I honestly don't like Stalin much but I fully agree that the "numbers" of people he murdered is exaggrated by a lot.

As for China's Mao Zedong... =/

I don't know. Sure, he killed lots of his own people thru failed communes and the fanatical "Red Gaurds"but he also heavily industrilzed China as well. He simplified the language (which is a blessing and a curse) and made China get back on it's feet after WW2 and Korea.

I honestly think the West hates China too much. T_T

North Korea...damn, failest fail to have EVER failed. Kim Jong-il can burn in hell.

You know...it always seems the worst of leaders have ALWAYS been short, fat, and quite fugly. Tojo, Stalin, Il-Sung, and Jong-il. All of them have been short, fat, and crazy.

lol!
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 5:52 am

Jeiro Sijakeuigwan wrote:

North Korea...damn, failest fail to have EVER failed. Kim Jong-il can burn in hell.
lol!

Of course, its the world's only communist kingdom.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 10:13 am

NK reminds me more of Nazi germany then a communist state.
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 10:23 am

Ryom wrote:
NK reminds me more of Nazi germany then a communist state.

I think its more like Oceania than either of them.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 10:30 am

NK is one of the most propaganda affected countries in the world
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 10:34 am

Ryom wrote:
NK is one of the most propaganda affected countries in the world

Not really, they have an inner party that doesn't believe it, an outer party that buys it, and the regime enslaves and doesn't car about of the majority of population of "proles" and political prisoners.
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Ryom
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 10:42 am

the majority of the NK common folk really do belive that the great leader is ¨devine¨, and most (because of propaganda) of them really belive that they won the Korean war
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mattabesta
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2008 10:53 pm

Jeiro Sijakeuigwan wrote:
I honestly don't like Stalin much but I fully agree that the "numbers" of people he murdered is exaggrated by a lot.

As for China's Mao Zedong... =/

I don't know. Sure, he killed lots of his own people thru failed communes and the fanatical "Red Gaurds"but he also heavily industrilzed China as well. He simplified the language (which is a blessing and a curse) and made China get back on it's feet after WW2 and Korea.

I honestly think the West hates China too much. T_T

North Korea...damn, failest fail to have EVER failed. Kim Jong-il can burn in hell.


You know...it always seems the worst of leaders have ALWAYS been short, fat, and quite fugly. Tojo, Stalin, Il-Sung, and Jong-il. All of them have been short, fat, and crazy.

lol!
umm and mao, he did industryalise it a littel but gpd growth during "the grate leap forward" was 0% in real terms hower china is now growing by 11% pa, he focused on argincultur wich killd thuands if not hundreds of thusands
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Jeiro Sijakeuigwan
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2008 4:02 am

Oligarch is correct, Ryom. North Korea is extremely similar to Oceania from George Orwell's 1984 book. I personally have read a memoir account on North Korea from a KPA defector and he says that most of the population lives in fear. He even said he sensed something was very wrong whenever he was assigned to a prison camp. He was a truck driver and when he met with an officer, he was instructed, "Not to speak nor smile." Hell became daily life after that. Even within the KWP, everybody knows about the "reeducation camps" scattered thruout the country.

Even babies know about them. Parents tell them at night, "Be silent or the prisons will catch you." It's completely dismal and heartbreaking. Crying or Very sad

If every single one in the public knew about prison camps, then they wouldn't be blindly loyal would they? Sure, some might, but most of the North Koreans just want to live. Crying or Very sad

And I guarentee you, all the US government knows this. But they don't do a single thing about it. Why?

Because they draw in money from Korea's ongoing division. They draw in SHITLOADS of cash from the South Korean government for just SITTING on their godsdammed asses all fucking day.

I think the US wouldn't have it any other way... Crying or Very sad
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oligarch
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PostSubject: Re: Deportation of Stalin into Gulag   Deportation of Stalin into Gulag - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 06, 2008 3:56 am

Jeiro Sijakeuigwan wrote:
Oligarch is correct, Ryom. North Korea is extremely similar to Oceania from George Orwell's 1984 book. I personally have read a memoir account on North Korea from a KPA defector and he says that most of the population lives in fear. He even said he sensed something was very wrong whenever he was assigned to a prison camp. He was a truck driver and when he met with an officer, he was instructed, "Not to speak nor smile." Hell became daily life after that. Even within the KWP, everybody knows about the "reeducation camps" scattered thruout the country.

Even babies know about them. Parents tell them at night, "Be silent or the prisons will catch you." It's completely dismal and heartbreaking. Crying or Very sad

If every single one in the public knew about prison camps, then they wouldn't be blindly loyal would they? Sure, some might, but most of the North Koreans just want to live. Crying or Very sad

And I guarentee you, all the US government knows this. But they don't do a single thing about it. Why?

Because they draw in money from Korea's ongoing division. They draw in SHITLOADS of cash from the South Korean government for just SITTING on their godsdammed asses all fucking day.

I think the US wouldn't have it any other way... Crying or Very sad

Precisely, not to mention the excuse for a maintained military presence in SK. I think the camps are generally in the northern region though.
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